View Poll Results: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

Voters
68. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, entirely.

    7 10.29%
  • Yes, partially

    19 27.94%
  • No, partially

    10 14.71%
  • No, entirely

    29 42.65%
  • Other.

    3 4.41%
Page 16 of 30 FirstFirst ... 6141516171826 ... LastLast
Results 151 to 160 of 297

Thread: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

  1. #151
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Last Seen
    09-22-10 @ 04:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    11,430

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I guess people can justify anything if they start discounting or minimalizing data. *shrugs*
    I guess people can use statistics for anything, when they ignore trends in their baselines and assume they're level.

    Today's SAT is a joke, has been ever since the media and the courts decided that questions that some people have problems answering correctly must be racist if those people aren't white.

    Well, geometry and the English language isn't racist, and people who can't answer standardized questions on those subjects aren't being discriminated against, they're learning the limits of their knowledge. It's up to them to learn how to answer them. It should not be up to the courts to make the tests easier.

  2. #152
    Advisor Rassales's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    03-08-10 @ 02:23 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    564

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Employers are FORCED into collective bargaining with their employees should they decide to unionize, which means any contract the employer and union "agree" to is illegitimate. Often times, the contracts will stipulate the terms of employment so as to favor the union, and can you guess what most of them say about terminating an employee who is on strike?

    This all derives from the Wagner Act, which is nothing more than government coercion on behalf of labor unions.
    But its what people have wanted, and its been judged constitutional (and its been in force for 85 years). The kinds of actions employers took against their workers before the Wagner Act persuaded Americans that some legislation was needed to even up the power between capital and labor. Without these changes, even more grave threats to capitalism were likely.

    I read, however, that it does NOT apply to public-sector workers, so it may not be germane to this conversation: [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act]read [/ame]
    Last edited by Rassales; 02-03-10 at 10:39 PM.

  3. #153
    Sage
    Bodhisattva's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Zealand
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:53 AM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    63,918

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Employers are FORCED into collective bargaining with their employees should they decide to unionize, which means any contract the employer and union "agree" to is illegitimate. Often times, the contracts will stipulate the terms of employment so as to favor the union, and can you guess what most of them say about terminating an employee who is on strike?

    This all derives from the Wagner Act, which is nothing more than government coercion on behalf of labor unions.
    Duress is a daily thing that occurs everywhere and is near impossible to litigate...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  4. #154
    Sage
    Bodhisattva's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Zealand
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:53 AM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    63,918

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    I guess people can use statistics for anything, when they ignore trends in their baselines and assume they're level.

    Today's SAT is a joke, has been ever since the media and the courts decided that questions that some people have problems answering correctly must be racist if those people aren't white.

    Well, geometry and the English language isn't racist, and people who can't answer standardized questions on those subjects aren't being discriminated against, they're learning the limits of their knowledge. It's up to them to learn how to answer them. It should not be up to the courts to make the tests easier.
    You say the SAT's are a joke, I don't really care, then we have Ethereal saying the college degrees don't mean much... well, then lawyers and doctors and businessmen and accountants are all subpar as well. If you agree to that then that is fine.

    But, if teacher SAT's are doing as well and better then SAT's being taken by other professions, then they are still doing as well or better thus negating your entire point in the first place... can't have it both ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  5. #155
    Advisor Rassales's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    03-08-10 @ 02:23 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    564

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    I like your analogy here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    It is like those that understand psychology but could never counsel a person, and that is a great analogy... or a lawyer that knows the law but can't be a trial counsel. Guess what? There are those that can't counsel and do and those that can't practice law but do... nobody ever seems to bitch about them as much as they bitch about a few teachers that suck.
    There's an old saying in business that "20% of your salesmen make 80% of your sales" and that if the bottom 80% were fired, it would still be true that of those left, 20% if the salesmen would make 80% of the sales. There are mediocre workers in every profession.

    It's also interesting how much of this conversation is driven by the personal experience of the participants. "I know this teacher I think is lousy" and therefore somehow the whole profession is full of lice. Everyone wants a great teacher for their child--but not all teachers are outstanding, that much is true.

  6. #156
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Last Seen
    09-22-10 @ 04:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    11,430

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Duress is a daily thing that occurs everywhere and is near impossible to litigate...
    No....all the government has to do is repeal the law protecting people who refuse to work. If a person doesn't want to work, the employer, who owns the job, should have every freedom to hire someone who will do the job instead, and let the other go, forever.

  7. #157
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Last Seen
    09-22-10 @ 04:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    11,430

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    You say the SAT's are a joke, I don't really care, then we have Ethereal saying the college degrees don't mean much... well, then lawyers and doctors and businessmen and accountants are all subpar as well. If you agree to that then that is fine.

    But, if teacher SAT's are doing as well and better then SAT's being taken by other professions, then they are still doing as well or better thus negating your entire point in the first place... can't have it both ways.
    I've seen engineers with degrees from MIT and from Bum****you. The peice of paper isn't a guarantee that the guy holding it knows bolt thread shear from buckling.

  8. #158
    Sage
    Bodhisattva's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Zealand
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:53 AM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    63,918

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    I like your analogy here:There's an old saying in business that "20% of your salesmen make 80% of your sales" and that if the bottom 80% were fired, it would still be true that of those left, 20% if the salesmen would make 80% of the sales. There are mediocre workers in every profession.

    It's also interesting how much of this conversation is driven by the personal experience of the participants. "I know this teacher I think is lousy" and therefore somehow the whole profession is full of lice. Everyone wants a great teacher for their child--but not all teachers are outstanding, that much is true.
    Thanks... and good point yourself. Also, not that it applies to people here, but many people that complain are either not educated themselves or simply don't understand the whole issue, like personal responsibility, or perhaps they didn't learn for a certain reason and blame the teacher. Education is a complex issue and when people just sit back and bash teachers, I take their input with a grain of salt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  9. #159
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    04-02-15 @ 06:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,211

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    But its what people have wanted...
    Just because some people want something doesn't mean we should do it.

    ...and its been judged constitutional (and its been in force for 85 years).
    And we all know the SCOTUS is never wrong...

    The kinds of actions employers took against their workers...
    As was their right.

    Without these changes, even more grave threats to capitalism were likely.
    How can you protect capitalism by violating an employer's private property rights?



    I read, however, that it does NOT apply to public-sector workers, so it may not be germane to this conversation: read
    The Federal statute does not apply to public-sector employees, correct, but there are many State laws which serve an identical purpose.

    Here's Illinois:

    EDUCATIONAL LABOR RELATIONS
    (115 ILCS 5/) Illinois Educational Labor Relations Act.


    (115 ILCS 5/14) (from Ch. 48, par. 1714)
    Sec. 14. Unfair labor practices.
    (a) Educational employers, their agents or representatives are prohibited from:
    (1) Interfering, restraining or coercing employees in the exercise of the rights guaranteed under this Act.
    (2) Dominating or interfering with the formation, existence or administration of any employee organization.
    (3) Discriminating in regard to hire or tenure of employment or any term or condition of employment to encourage or discourage membership in any employee organization.
    (4) Discharging or otherwise discriminating against an employee because he or she has signed or filed an affidavit, authorization card, petition or complaint or given any information or testimony under this Act.
    (5) Refusing to bargain collectively in good faith with an employee representative which is the exclusive representative of employees in an appropriate unit, including but not limited to the discussing of grievances with the exclusive representative; provided, however, that if an alleged unfair labor practice involves interpretation or application of the terms of a collective bargaining agreement and said agreement contains a grievance and arbitration procedure, the Board may defer the resolution of such dispute to the grievance and arbitration procedure contained in said agreement.
    (6) Refusing to reduce a collective bargaining agreement to writing and signing such agreement.
    (7) Violating any of the rules and regulation promulgated by the Board regulating the conduct of representation elections.
    (8) Refusing to comply with the provisions of a binding arbitration award.
    (9) Expending or causing the expenditure of public funds to any external agent, individual, firm, agency, partnership or association in any attempt to influence the outcome of representational elections held pursuant to paragraph (c) of Section 7 of this Act; provided, that nothing in this subsection shall be construed to limit an employer's right to be represented on any matter pertaining to unit determinations, unfair labor practice charges or pre‑election conferences in any formal or informal proceeding before the Board, or to seek or obtain advice from legal counsel. Nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to prohibit an employer from expending or causing the expenditure of public funds on, or seeking or obtaining services or advice from, any organization, group or association established by, and including educational or public employers, whether or not covered by this Act, the Illinois Public Labor Relations Act or the public employment labor relations law of any other state or the federal government, provided that such services or advice are generally available to the membership of the organization, group, or association, and are not offered solely in an attempt to influence the outcome of a particular representational election.

    115*ILCS*5/**Illinois Educational Labor Relations Act.

  10. #160
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    04-02-15 @ 06:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,211

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Duress is a daily thing that occurs everywhere and is near impossible to litigate...
    I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Page 16 of 30 FirstFirst ... 6141516171826 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •