View Poll Results: Should the 2001/2003 GWB tax cuts be extended for people that make under $250k?

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Thread: Should the 2001/2003 GWB cuts be extended?

  1. #301
    Educator nerv14's Avatar
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    Re: Should the 2001/2003 GWB cuts be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    is there any limit to what the top 1% should have to pay in your mind. MOre than a quarter is confiscatory in my mind and right now lots of people pay close to half their income in taxes once you figure in state, local, and federal taxes. If you leave more than a million than you end paying even more

    I don't trust dem politicians to stop at a certain point if they think they can buy the votes of the minions

    the income tax and the death tax never would have even received 15% support if the current numbers were contemplated when those taxes were passed.
    In Europe they don't have an infinite progression like you are talking about, so it is a straw man to say that progressive taxation will lead to that in America.

    Do you have any example on your side? I don't think so, which is why your fear is just a speculation.

  2. #302
    Educator nerv14's Avatar
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    Re: Should the 2001/2003 GWB cuts be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You are addressing 2 different subjects in your post, government spending, whether to have a progressive vs a regressive tax system.

    Government spending is not a function of the type of tax system we have.

    This can be easily demonstrated by our history when we had much higher taxes and much lower debt.

    Spending is determined on priorities of the electorate (we the people) and their representatives they vote into office.
    Agreed, but I think you can admit that since spending increases are more popular then balancing the budget, any surpluses from raising taxes put pressure on spending to be increased.

    There are many factors that cause spending to increase, and one of the many promoters is increased taxes.


    I would rather have high spending with a balanced budget then low spending with a budget defecit, and I get the impression that is at the root of this issue.
    Last edited by nerv14; 02-15-10 at 07:53 PM.

  3. #303
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Should the 2001/2003 GWB cuts be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You are addressing 2 different subjects in your post, government spending, whether to have a progressive vs a regressive tax system.

    Government spending is not a function of the type of tax system we have.

    This can be easily demonstrated by our history when we had much higher taxes and much lower debt.

    Spending is determined on priorities of the electorate (we the people) and their representatives they vote into office.
    true but you do understand it is legitimate to criticize a system where those who pay no taxes have an equal ability to vote up the tax rates of those who do

    you do understand that there are good faith arguments against progressive taxes that have nothing to do with economics per se and there are some people who think that individuals should not be pawns of whatever the majority considers the greater good or their greater good.



  4. #304
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    Re: Should the 2001/2003 GWB cuts be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    true but you do understand it is legitimate to criticize a system where those who pay no taxes have an equal ability to vote up the tax rates of those who do
    From my point of view, this doesn't really have anything to do with the poor. The tax situation for the poor has not really changed much though any of our tax changes. The poop pay little to no taxes, and never have, because it it understood they have little to no money to pay taxes. If they did, they would not be poor.

    The real battle is between the upper and middle classes, and due to the massive tax cuts on the wealthiest this has forced more of the tax burden to the middle class, pushing more and more of them into the lower class and creating more and more debt that is not covered by the tax revenues.
    you do understand that there are good faith arguments against progressive taxes that have nothing to do with economics per se and there are some people who think that individuals should not be pawns of whatever the majority considers the greater good or their greater good.
    Just as there are many people that feel we should not be subsidizing corporations, or unfunded wars to make the middle east safe for big oil.
    The spending priorities are a completely different issue than what type of tax system is best.

    The issue with progressive vs regressive taxes is do we increase taxes on on the top tax brackets proportional to their wealth as our system was designed by our forefathers, or do we continue to make it more regressive where the wealthy pay a lesser share of their wealth than the middle class.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  5. #305
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Should the 2001/2003 GWB cuts be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by nerv14 View Post
    In Europe they don't have an infinite progression like you are talking about, so it is a straw man to say that progressive taxation will lead to that in America.

    Do you have any example on your side? I don't think so, which is why your fear is just a speculation.
    basing what has happened in europe is fine with me

    the next time some gun hater claims we are paranoid to think dems want to ban handguns I will just point to England.

    but thanks for your evasion--I asked at what point is too much and you ignored it

    and you forget dems once imposed 90% rates-we don't need to look to europe to see the pathetic parasitism of the left here



  6. #306
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    Re: Should the 2001/2003 GWB cuts be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    From my point of view, this doesn't really have anything to do with the poor. The tax situation for the poor has not really changed much though any of our tax changes. The poop pay little to no taxes, and never have, because it it understood they have little to no money to pay taxes. If they did, they would not be poor.

    The real battle is between the upper and middle classes, and due to the massive tax cuts on the wealthiest this has forced more of the tax burden to the middle class, pushing more and more of them into the lower class and creating more and more debt that is not covered by the tax revenues.


    Just as there are many people that feel we should not be subsidizing corporations, or unfunded wars to make the middle east safe for big oil.
    The spending priorities are a completely different issue than what type of tax system is best.

    The issue with progressive vs regressive taxes is do we increase taxes on on the top tax brackets proportional to their wealth as our system was designed by our forefathers, or do we continue to make it more regressive where the wealthy pay a lesser share of their wealth than the middle class.
    I find it interesting you paen the tax hiking dems and ignore the founders

    right now the tax system is the most skewed it has ever been with the rich paying the higher percentage of the total bill even though the rates are lower.

    its beause the Bush tax adjustments sadly knocked lots of people off the income tax.

    I think we need a system where everyone suffers when taxes are increased



  7. #307
    Educator nerv14's Avatar
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    Re: Should the 2001/2003 GWB cuts be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    basing what has happened in europe is fine with me

    the next time some gun hater claims we are paranoid to think dems want to ban handguns I will just point to England.
    Right you are, I agree with you that bad social policies in America could lead to even worse social policies because of Europe. But if we are going to use European nations as examples of what American policies could be, then we should agree on how the same thing can't happen with fiscal policy because it hasn't happened anywhere in Europe.

    Great to get an agreement on that.

    but thanks for your evasion--I asked at what point is too much and you ignored it

    and you forget dems once imposed 90% rates-we don't need to look to europe to see the pathetic parasitism of the left here
    But I think whatever tax rate under Clinton is fine, he is cool. so what?


    and it was HOOVER who instigated the 90% income tax rates, not any Democrat.

  8. #308
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Should the 2001/2003 GWB cuts be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by nerv14 View Post
    Right you are, I agree with you that bad social policies in America could lead to even worse social policies because of Europe. But if we are going to use European nations as examples of what American policies could be, then we should agree on how the same thing can't happen with fiscal policy because it hasn't happened anywhere in Europe.

    Great to get an agreement on that.



    But I think whatever tax rate under Clinton is fine, he is cool. so what?


    and it was HOOVER who instigated the 90% income tax rates, not any Democrat.
    really? Mbig's post said that didn't happen until well after HOover was gone

    BTW in many cases those huge rates didn't hit nearly as many people as the proposed Obama tax hikes will. No I cannot cite the source right now but I have heard several say the effective tax rate on the top 1%-based on the proposed obama hikes would be the highest effective rate in history due to all the ways people were able to avoid that confiscatory rate 50years ago



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    Educator nerv14's Avatar
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    Re: Should the 2001/2003 GWB cuts be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    really? Mbig's post said that didn't happen until well after HOover was gone

    BTW in many cases those huge rates didn't hit nearly as many people as the proposed Obama tax hikes will. No I cannot cite the source right now but I have heard several say the effective tax rate on the top 1%-based on the proposed obama hikes would be the highest effective rate in history due to all the ways people were able to avoid that confiscatory rate 50years ago
    I agree with you that some taxation like that should be avoided, which is why I support Clinton's tax rate. If Obama wants to go above what there was under Clinton, then I would oppose that.


    Yeah you are right, Hoover increased income taxes to 63% on top earners, and it only reached 90% during WWII. FDR first raised taxes in 1933 to 73%, but the largest increase was during WWII.

    Either way, Hoover increased it drastically.

    The Tax Foundation - U.S. Federal Individual Income Tax Rates History, 1913-2010

  10. #310
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    Re: Should the 2001/2003 GWB cuts be extended?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I find it interesting you paen the tax hiking dems and ignore the founders
    I don't know what you mean there. Clarify please.

    right now the tax system is the most skewed it has ever been with the rich paying the higher percentage of the total bill even though the rates are lower.
    No it was skewed the most when tax rates were 92% for the the top tax bracket. We are but a fraction of that now.

    its beause the Bush tax adjustments sadly knocked lots of people off the income tax.
    Perhaps it would be cheaper to build poor houses, or increase welfare? How do you get blood out of a turnip?

    I think we need a system where everyone suffers when taxes are increased.
    I think being poor, is suffering enough! If you wish to trade places with the poor, I am sure you will find takers!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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