View Poll Results: What should the US do?

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  • Feed them for a while, but leave if they don't step up soon

    12 60.00%
  • Expand relief operations to include rebuilding and upgrading

    6 30.00%
  • Option 2, then hold a plebiscite afterwards to determine their future

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Thread: What should the future of the US in Haiti be?

  1. #21
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    Re: What should the future of the US in Haiti be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I agree, but I think that the goal of taking over Haiti should be to CREATE self-governance, and then eventually turn over the reins.

    And, I think France and Spain should be responsible for doing this, since their empire-building created the problem. They have a moral obligation to engage in "nation building."

    Ironic, don't you think?
    Good luck on that. Once Haiti declared themselves independent of French rule, they were, in essence, saying they could handle it from there on. It would be like America declaring itself independent from England, then asking England to keep giving them money.

    You seem to think that somehow, Haiti *DESERVES* to be an independent state. I think it need to earn it. It's proven that, at least at the moment, it cannot handle it. It needs someone else to step in, or it needs to be dissolved entirely and a different state set up that is no longer Haiti. You don't make political decisions based on "oh, those poor people had bad things happen to them, therefore they DESERVE all this stuff", but on what they can independently earn.

    Right now, they haven't done it.
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    Re: What should the future of the US in Haiti be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Have you actually read ANYTHING about the history of Haiti? The French killed off the natives, brought in millions of African slaves, and pillaged the natural resources. When the Haitian slave revolution ended, the French left, and the former slaves ended up running things. Never mind that these former slaves were completely illiterate, had almost zero family structure thanks to the way the plantations functioned, and were completely out of their league.

    It would be like putting a 6-year-old into office as president and then blaming him when he f'ed up.
    Leave Obama out of this.......

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    Re: What should the future of the US in Haiti be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Good luck on that. Once Haiti declared themselves independent of French rule, they were, in essence, saying they could handle it from there on. It would be like America declaring itself independent from England, then asking England to keep giving them money.
    So, in your worldview, the slaves should have stayed quietly on the plantations as property?

    SERIOUSLY?

    You seem to think that somehow, Haiti *DESERVES* to be an independent state.
    I think all people deserve freedom, however, in some cases, nations have been so handicapped by their history that achieving it on their own is unlikely.

    It's proven that, at least at the moment, it cannot handle it. It needs someone else to step in, or it needs to be dissolved entirely and a different state set up that is no longer Haiti.
    How is this different from what I've said above?

    You don't make political decisions based on "oh, those poor people had bad things happen to them, therefore they DESERVE all this stuff",
    I would make my decisions based upon the history of the country. France and Spain destabilized Haiti. They bear the primary onus for Haiti's current conditions.

    but on what they can independently earn. Right now, they haven't done it.
    This is based upon the naive but typical hard-right opinion that people are born capable of earning independence, and if they don't, it's because they don't deserve to be independent. When, in point of fact, people have to be educated to be capable of self-governance. Even our founding fathers recognized that.

    You may well be capable of self-governance because you grew up in a country where you received an adequate education and had some degree of family stability.

    In contrast, the poorest, most dysfunctional ghetto child in the U.S. has far more assets than the average Haitian.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 02-03-10 at 01:58 PM.

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    Re: What should the future of the US in Haiti be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Partisan View Post
    Leave Obama out of this.......
    Because Bush was ever-so-much more compentent.


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    Re: What should the future of the US in Haiti be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    So, in your worldview, the slaves should have stayed quietly on the plantations as property?

    SERIOUSLY?
    I never said that, but those slaves can't just turn around to their former masters and hold out their hand either. If you want to be independent, you need to be independent.

    This is based upon the naive but typical hard-right opinion that people are born capable of earning independence, and if they don't, it's because they don't deserve to be independent. When, in point of fact, people have to be educated to be capable of self-governance. Even our founding fathers recognized that.
    Not deserve, earn. It's something that people need to earn for themselves, not simply granted by fiat. Those who work hardest deserve far more than those who do not.

    You may well be capable of self-governance because you grew up in a country where you received an adequate education and had some degree of family stability.
    And they've had time and at least a modicum of financial success over the years where they could have started implementing that, seeking foreign advisors, etc. They just didn't. They made quite a bit of money from sugar and rum exports. Where did that money go?
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    Re: What should the future of the US in Haiti be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I never said that, but those slaves can't just turn around to their former masters and hold out their hand either. If you want to be independent, you need to be independent.
    I don't believe Haiti is ready, at this point, to be independent. Which means that someone needs to take responsibility for them. I would say that the country which is morally obligated to do so, at this point in time, is France.

    And they've had time and at least a modicum of financial success over the years where they could have started implementing that, seeking foreign advisors, etc. They just didn't. They made quite a bit of money from sugar and rum exports. Where did that money go?
    I think the issue is...How can Haiti be redirected to become more like the Dominican Republic?

    Island Divide: Haiti vs. the Dominican Republic

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    Re: What should the future of the US in Haiti be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I don't believe Haiti is ready, at this point, to be independent. Which means that someone needs to take responsibility for them. I would say that the country which is morally obligated to do so, at this point in time, is France.
    And I'm sure that the last country the Haitian people want anything to do with are the French.
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    Re: What should the future of the US in Haiti be?

    This is the first real opportunity to add a state or territory to the Union in over 50 years. Since the last state or significant territory was added to the US to the present has been the longest period of lack of expansion in US history. On top of that when was the last time America was so popular people were asking to become part of our country? Not since the end of WW2 when it might have been possible for Newfoundland or Greenland to join the US. I think its exciting.

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    Re: What should the future of the US in Haiti be?

    You think the idea of becoming an indefinite benefactor to a vast hole of suck is a good thing?

    God save us all.

    The needs are extraordinary, and the common refrain is that the Americans will provide.

    "I want the Americans to take over the country. The Haitian government can't do anything for us," said Jean-Louis Geffrard, a laborer who lives under a tarp in the crowded square. "When we tell the government we're hungry, the government says, 'We're hungry, too.' "

    Added Canga Matthieu, a medical student whose school was destroyed: "The American government should take care of us."

    "They're well organized. The United States is the richest country in the world, and they can help."
    That's very flattering, but NO. We're currently fighting two wars, our country has a trillion dollar deficit whose interest payments consumes 20% of our taxes, and we can't even provide healthcare for our citizens.

    HELL NO.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 02-03-10 at 05:33 PM.

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    Re: What should the future of the US in Haiti be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    You think the idea of becoming an indefinite benefactor to a vast hole of suck is a good thing?

    God save us all.



    That's very flattering, but NO. We're currently fighting two wars, our country has a trillion dollar deficit whose interest payments consumes 20% of our taxes, and we can't even provide healthcare for our citizens.

    HELL NO.
    If they want to petition for statehood and it's approved, fine. It might take many years, but if that's the route they want to go, I'm fine with it. Of course, they get to kiss Haiti goodbye as an independent state forever, once they join, there's no going back.

    How many do you think will go for it?
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