View Poll Results: Who, if anyone, should the State force on birth control?

Voters
100. You may not vote on this poll
  • The mentally retarded

    31 31.00%
  • Those with genetic diseases that will cost the State

    29 29.00%
  • Drug addicts

    35 35.00%
  • Child abusers

    36 36.00%
  • Those receiving government assistance (food stamps, welfare)

    41 41.00%
  • Those who've already had 2 or 3 kids (overpopulation)

    15 15.00%
  • Anyone failing a psychological test

    14 14.00%
  • Women over 35 (Higher rate of genetic anomalies)

    3 3.00%
  • Girls under 18

    21 21.00%
  • Forced birth control is a violation of basic human rights

    52 52.00%
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Thread: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

  1. #61
    Educator Winnb's Avatar
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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I don't agree that people receiving welfare should be forced to take birth control. That's where you are a crossing a line and widening lattitude from a "judicial response to a crime" to "stop the undesirables from breeding".
    The line is not very wide. It starts as a good idea because it meets our political ideology and forces "those bad guys" to do what we want.

    Then it starts to get messy.
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    Educator Winnb's Avatar
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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    OK, fair enough. But I guess we should clarify something since you are gonna be around for a while...I'm not libertarian in my views at all. In fact, I am probably a bit more authoritarian in my views on government. I believe that judicial response to criminal activity should be harsh, complete, and penalizing enough to prevent recidivism of the crime, even if prevention of recurrence is a matter of making that recurrence a physical impossibility.
    Don't worry about your views. I respond to your posts because they are reasoned and intelligent. You make good points, you put up a good argument.

    Thank you.

    Unfortunately I cannot say that for everyone.
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  3. #63
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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winnb View Post
    The line is not very wide. It starts as a good idea because it meets our political ideology and forces "those bad guys" to do what we want.

    Then it starts to get messy.
    I don't see the similarity between "judicial response to criminal behavior" and "stop the undesirables from breeding" being close enough to cause confusion. I also don't believe in the slippery slope fallacy because...well...it's a fallacy.

  4. #64
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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I don't see the similarity between "judicial response to criminal behavior" and "stop the undesirables from breeding" being close enough to cause confusion. I also don't believe in the slippery slope fallacy because...well...it's a fallacy.
    I know. I loathe slippery slope arguments simply because they can be used to argue anything. Which makes them useless. And so many talking heads use them to strike fear into their listeners and viewers.

    Buy I'm always worried when we start taking control away from people via legislation. Somebody robs a bank, we lock'em up. No problem with that. Murder, rape, molestation, beating someone senseless, I say lock'em up.

    But forcing someone to become sterile, even temporarily... That just seems wrong on so many levels.
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  5. #65
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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I don't agree that people receiving welfare should be forced to take birth control. That's where you are a crossing a line and widening lattitude from a "judicial response to a crime" to "stop the undesirables from breeding".
    Nope. Has nothing to do with 'undesirables'. Has entirely to do with limiting the amount of money the government (i.e. the taxpayers) have to dish out. If someone is on welfare, they cannot afford the child they have. They have no business expecting US to pay for additional ones.

    But fine, I'd accept a stipulation with welfare that if you have an additional child while on welfare, you don't get any additional money. That solves the problem as well, but IMO, in a more detrimental way.

    Someone who is living off the support of others should expect restrictions on the extent of that support, or requirements in order to receive said support. I see nothing wrong with one of those things birth control. It has nothing to do with 'undesirables' and everything to do with $$$.

    Want the money? Then you do xyz. Don't want to do xyz? Then you don't get the money. It's their choice.

  6. #66
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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Nope. Has nothing to do with 'undesirables'. Has entirely to do with limiting the amount of money the government (i.e. the taxpayers) have to dish out. If someone is on welfare, they cannot afford the child they have. They have no business expecting US to pay for additional ones.

    But fine, I'd accept a stipulation with welfare that if you have an additional child while on welfare, you don't get any additional money. That solves the problem as well, but IMO, in a more detrimental way.

    Someone who is living off the support of others should expect restrictions on the extent of that support, or requirements in order to receive said support. I see nothing wrong with one of those things birth control. It has nothing to do with 'undesirables' and everything to do with $$$.

    Want the money? Then you do xyz. Don't want to do xyz? Then you don't get the money. It's their choice.

    After some thought, I am totally with you on that.

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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winnb View Post
    I know. I loathe slippery slope arguments simply because they can be used to argue anything. Which makes them useless. And so many talking heads use them to strike fear into their listeners and viewers.

    Buy I'm always worried when we start taking control away from people via legislation.
    What control is actually being taken? The control is always in the hands of the citizen prior to their criminal behavior. They hand over control by committing a criminal act. Control was always theirs until they decided to forfeit that control in favor of base animal conduct.

    Somebody robs a bank, we lock'em up. No problem with that. Murder, rape, molestation, beating someone senseless, I say lock'em up.
    So what's the difference between that and temporary forced sterilization? I mean, other than the obvious cost of incarceration, medical treatment, rehabilitation programs, education, etc...

    But forcing someone to become sterile, even temporarily... That just seems wrong on so many levels.
    Why? How is it any worse than locking them up? End result is still the same in that they are not breeding. In fact, it's just slightly worse to lock them up because instead of one freedom being denied in specific response to the criminal action they took, literally hundreds of freedoms are being denied now. Plus, the burden on the state is magnified a thousand times over.

    No, go for the sterilization. It's better for everyone involved.

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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Nope. Has nothing to do with 'undesirables'. Has entirely to do with limiting the amount of money the government (i.e. the taxpayers) have to dish out. If someone is on welfare, they cannot afford the child they have. They have no business expecting US to pay for additional ones.

    But fine, I'd accept a stipulation with welfare that if you have an additional child while on welfare, you don't get any additional money. That solves the problem as well, but IMO, in a more detrimental way.

    Someone who is living off the support of others should expect restrictions on the extent of that support, or requirements in order to receive said support. I see nothing wrong with one of those things birth control. It has nothing to do with 'undesirables' and everything to do with $$$.

    Want the money? Then you do xyz. Don't want to do xyz? Then you don't get the money. It's their choice.

    But this is part of the problem. You're making people jump through hoops to get a handout. The welfare recipients are still getting our money. You're giving the government the power to take our money, then giving the government power to set requirements for others to receive our money.

    We'd be better off to simply cut off the money.

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  9. #69
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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Nope. Has nothing to do with 'undesirables'. Has entirely to do with limiting the amount of money the government (i.e. the taxpayers) have to dish out. If someone is on welfare, they cannot afford the child they have. They have no business expecting US to pay for additional ones.

    But fine, I'd accept a stipulation with welfare that if you have an additional child while on welfare, you don't get any additional money. That solves the problem as well, but IMO, in a more detrimental way.

    Someone who is living off the support of others should expect restrictions on the extent of that support, or requirements in order to receive said support. I see nothing wrong with one of those things birth control. It has nothing to do with 'undesirables' and everything to do with $$$.

    Want the money? Then you do xyz. Don't want to do xyz? Then you don't get the money. It's their choice.
    This would all be a believably sincere except you are predicating our acceptance of this on the idea that we would suspend our disbelief and assume that it is not what we currently consider "undesirables" that are the main recipients of welfare.

    This whole philosophy of yours is nothing more than a pig named Eugenics with a different shade of lipstick on it.

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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winnb View Post
    The answer then is to stop giving away the King's coin.
    Right; except you and I both know that isn't going to happen.

    Sure, and it would create a whole new batch of problems. The biggest one being that we just gave our government the authority to decide who gets pregnant and who doesn't.
    No, it's pretty simple.

    You want this welfare check? You're getting this 10 year IUD.

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