View Poll Results: Who, if anyone, should the State force on birth control?

Voters
100. You may not vote on this poll
  • The mentally retarded

    31 31.00%
  • Those with genetic diseases that will cost the State

    29 29.00%
  • Drug addicts

    35 35.00%
  • Child abusers

    36 36.00%
  • Those receiving government assistance (food stamps, welfare)

    41 41.00%
  • Those who've already had 2 or 3 kids (overpopulation)

    15 15.00%
  • Anyone failing a psychological test

    14 14.00%
  • Women over 35 (Higher rate of genetic anomalies)

    3 3.00%
  • Girls under 18

    21 21.00%
  • Forced birth control is a violation of basic human rights

    52 52.00%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

  1. #121
    Advisor LiveUninhibited's Avatar
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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    This person with the name "liveuninhibited" thinks natural human instinct is something that should be controlled by the government?

    It is intresting, but how do you justify it and where do you draw the line?
    Yeah I was a hardcore libertarian when I first started using this name about 12 years ago. I guess next time I join a forum I might choose another one.

    Anyway, it's quite easy to justify. Raising children necessarily involves an innocent, non-consenting third party, and so cannot possibly be treated as a right. Assuming you're okay with the government taking kids away from abusive parents after the fact, I'm not sure why you wouldn't want the government to prevent people who have abused kids in the past from abusing more kids.

    The "natural human instinct" (not that I consider that criteria relevant to anything) part is having sex, which I would not stop people, even relatives, from doing assuming everybody involved is consenting. Thankfully it is quite possible to have sex without procreation, and since I believe in abortion to a point it doesn't matter to me if the birth control fails.

    I'd certainly draw the line no earlier than those who have clearly demonstrated they are a risk to children, or cannot take care of children (e.g. severely mentally challenged). While it's true that we ought to be conservative in how we apply it, I just don't buy into the slippery slope argument of it being inevitably abused.
    Last edited by LiveUninhibited; 04-21-10 at 03:55 AM.

  2. #122
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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Yeah I was a hardcore libertarian when I first started using this name about 12 years ago. I guess next time I join a forum I might choose another one.

    Anyway, it's quite easy to justify. Raising children necessarily involves an innocent, non-consenting third party, and so cannot possibly be treated as a right. Assuming you're okay with the government taking kids away from abusive parents after the fact, I'm not sure why you wouldn't want the government to prevent people who have abused kids in the past from abusing more kids.

    The "natural human instinct" (not that I consider that criteria relevant to anything) part is having sex, which I would not stop people, even relatives, from doing assuming everybody involved is consenting. Thankfully it is quite possible to have sex without procreation, and since I believe in abortion to a point it doesn't matter to me if the birth control fails.

    I'd certainly draw the line no earlier than those who have clearly demonstrated they are a risk to children, or cannot take care of children (e.g. severely mentally challenged). While it's true that we ought to be conservative in how we apply it, I just don't buy into the slippery slope argument of it being inevitably abused.
    Then you understand very little about the basic human as an animal. Every animal including humans have the natural urge to procreate. It is not up to the state to tell anyone they can or cannot breed unless they give up that right by committing a crime.

    Your reasoning is flawed if not typical of the modern day progressive. Who complains about the Christian right and it's "morality" being forced into to law for things like abortion and the death penalty etc.
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  3. #123
    Advisor Regicollis's Avatar
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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    The argument that the government has to use forced birth control against women (what about men?) who are in one way or another unable to take care of their children doesn't hold. There are far less intrusive options available that will just as effectively make sure that children are not raised under indecent conditions.

    We can help the families, provide treatment and therapy for the problems that renders them unfit for raising children. If the parents are so far out that they cannot be helped we can take away the children as it happens already.

    There are no good reasons for forced sterilisations.

    By the way - who has been known to use forced sterilisation? Nazi Germany and the Chinese occupation forces in Tibet - is that a club a democratic and civilised country would like to join?
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  4. #124
    Educator Alvin T. Grey's Avatar
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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    I'd certainly draw the line no earlier than those who have clearly demonstrated they are a risk to children, or cannot take care of children (e.g. severely mentally challenged). While it's true that we ought to be conservative in how we apply it, I just don't buy into the slippery slope argument of it being inevitably abused.
    Really?
    Please give a full and complete definition of those conditions which will fit perfectly with every situation possible.

    Write it out on a piece of paper.
    Read it checking punctuation grammar and spelling.
    Fold it up.

    And shove it where the sun don't shine.

    BTW severly mentally retarded people can't have sex. It's illegal as they are unable to consent making the act rape. But you may have already knew that. So I'm wonderinng at what point you would class a person as Severly mentally disabled. How about physically disabled? you got a problem with that too?
    If life gives you Melons you probably have dyslexia.

  5. #125
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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    I'm just at the responses.

    It's a violation of rights.


  6. #126
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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    bristol palin?
    Oh good Lord. Here we go.


  7. #127
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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Then you understand very little about the basic human as an animal. Every animal including humans have the natural urge to procreate.
    No the natural urge is not, "Oh gee I wish I had a child I think I'll go have sex." The urge is to have sex. In the natural world, procreation is the consequence of sex, but sex is what is desired.

    It is not up to the state to tell anyone they can or cannot breed unless they give up that right by committing a crime.
    Yes, I gathered that this is your opinion, though I'm not sure if differs much from mine. Many people who would be deemed unfit to be parents would be so because of some crime they committed, particularly against children.

    Your reasoning is flawed if not typical of the modern day progressive. Who complains about the Christian right and it's "morality" being forced into to law for things like abortion and the death penalty etc.
    Okay go ahead and explain why it is flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Regicollis View Post
    The argument that the government has to use forced birth control against women (what about men?)
    Sure why not men?

    who are in one way or another unable to take care of their children doesn't hold. There are far less intrusive options available that will just as effectively make sure that children are not raised under indecent conditions.

    We can help the families, provide treatment and therapy for the problems that renders them unfit for raising children. If the parents are so far out that they cannot be helped we can take away the children as it happens already.

    There are no good reasons for forced sterilisations.
    Sure there is. It's better to be proactive and prevent the problem in the first place. You can't undo the damage that is done after it is done. You can prevent the suffering from happening if the person who wants to become a parent has already demonstrated they cannot take care of a child.

    By the way - who has been known to use forced sterilisation? Nazi Germany and the Chinese occupation forces in Tibet - is that a club a democratic and civilised country would like to join?
    I hope you see the difference between sterilization and direct extermination, but beyond that just because something has been misused doesn't mean it should never be used at all.
    Last edited by LiveUninhibited; 04-21-10 at 02:28 PM.

  8. #128
    Advisor LiveUninhibited's Avatar
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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin T. Grey View Post
    BTW severly mentally retarded people can't have sex. It's illegal as they are unable to consent making the act rape.
    Sure, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and it's irrelevant whether it's illegal or not when it's another "retarded" person doing them.

    But you may have already knew that. So I'm wonderinng at what point you would class a person as Severly mentally disabled.
    A psychiatrist can determine that. My only concern is that a person with severe mental challenges may not be able to take care of a child.

    How about physically disabled? you got a problem with that too?
    Not if they can take care of a child.
    Last edited by LiveUninhibited; 04-21-10 at 02:33 PM.

  9. #129
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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    No the natural urge is not, "Oh gee I wish I had a child I think I'll go have sex." The urge is to have sex. In the natural world, procreation is the consequence of sex, but sex is what is desired.
    And that "urge" exists for 1 reason and one reason only. The only reason it is a little different with other animals is we know why. This only because we have more reasoning ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Yes, I gathered that this is your opinion, though I'm not sure if differs much from mine. Many people who would be deemed unfit to be parents would be so because of some crime they committed, particularly against children.
    Committing a crime you give up your rights. Accepting aid in the form of a government hand out is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Okay go ahead and explain why it is flawed.
    I already did.
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    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  10. #130
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    Re: Who, if anyone, should be put on State mandated birth control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Committing a crime you give up your rights. Accepting aid in the form of a government hand out is not.
    Well it seems we both think it should be used more, I just draw the line a little further than you.

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