View Poll Results: Future of U.S. economy

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  • Things are and will get gradually better

    10 41.67%
  • Things will just stagnate the way they are for the most part for some time to come

    3 12.50%
  • Things will get worse before they get better

    6 25.00%
  • Things won't get better we are in for an economic collapse

    5 20.83%
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Thread: State of the economy now and in the future

  1. #31
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    Re: State of the economy now and in the future

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    If you spend wealth outside of the country, it must be because you're getting something back. Trade is based on mutual satisfaction of desires. Both parties will be better off. It is not a negative-sum game. We moved past mercantilism centuries ago.
    Yes both sides are getting something.

    China is gaining in wealth by selling TV's, clothing etc. The US is getting consumables (generally going into debt to get them) that wear out in a few years at best

    If we need to we can go to the story of the ant and the grasshopper

    Trade between nations is generally no different then trade between two people.


    We can sell each other stuff from now to the day we die, but if I go into ever increasing levels of debt to buy the stuff you are selling eventually I will go broke, while you of course will have had the opportunity to increase your wealth dramatically. That is the problem the US faces right now (along with the UK, Spain, the Baltics etc)

    It is not that they traded with foreign countries, it is that they went into debt to buy the stuff from foreign countries. And the worst part is the stuff they bought was for consumption rather then to improve infrustructure or competitiveness. South Korea during the 90's had a significant trade deficit but used it to build its industrial capacity, not on cheap tv's and nike's

  2. #32
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    Re: State of the economy now and in the future

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    , talk about some great . China and India were invaded! There was no voluntary trade.
    They were of course just some examples. Plenty of other countries have seen their share of the pie drop, due to economic uncompetitiveness.

    Just as a company can go bankrupt due to poor economic decisions (and take regions along with it, so can countries or states

    (Ie look at Michigan and Detroit)

  3. #33
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    Re: State of the economy now and in the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Yes both sides are getting something.

    China is gaining in wealth by selling TV's, clothing etc. The US is getting consumables (generally going into debt to get them) that wear out in a few years at best

    If we need to we can go to the story of the ant and the grasshopper

    Trade between nations is generally no different then trade between two people.


    We can sell each other stuff from now to the day we die, but if I go into ever increasing levels of debt to buy the stuff you are selling eventually I will go broke, while you of course will have had the opportunity to increase your wealth dramatically. That is the problem the US faces right now (along with the UK, Spain, the Baltics etc)
    Well the person getting stuff in credit takes a risk doesn't he? You're bringing up another issue with its own complexities. With trade, both parties are satisfied.

    If you bring in debt, you involve risk, hence an interest rate.

    It is not that they traded with foreign countries, it is that they went into debt to buy the stuff from foreign countries. And the worst part is the stuff they bought was for consumption rather then to improve infrustructure or competitiveness. South Korea during the 90's had a significant trade deficit but used it to build its industrial capacity, not on cheap tv's and nike's
    Wealth for you is entirely different than wealth for someone else. You can't just say that infrastructure is always more valuable than Nikes. It's not always the case.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  4. #34
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    Re: State of the economy now and in the future

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Well the person getting stuff in credit takes a risk doesn't he? You're bringing up another issue with its own complexities. With trade, both parties are satisfied.

    If you bring in debt, you involve risk, hence an interest rate.



    Wealth for you is entirely different than wealth for someone else. You can't just say that infrastructure is always more valuable than Nikes. It's not always the case.
    For sure the Nikes bring wealth, for about 2 years untill they are worn out. During that time of course unless I use the Nikes for my job, they did nothing to bring me more wealth. While that bride I could have bought, will likely last for 40 years at least, and provided it was not a bridge to nowwhere, I could charge a toll for people using it, and bring myself even more wealth, so that instead of one pair of nikes I could buy 2 or three pair


    Overall there is difference between wealth and economic utility.

    I might place a higher level of economic utility on the nikes rather then having $300 invested in GE prefered shares at a 9% yield, but that does not mean I have as much wealth had I bought the nikes rather then the shares of GE. In actual dollar terms my wealth has gone down in all likelyhood as I would have a hard time selling the nikes for what I paid for them. (while economic utility likely has gone up, at least in the short term)

  5. #35
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    Re: State of the economy now and in the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    For sure the Nikes bring wealth, for about 2 years untill they are worn out. During that time of course unless I use the Nikes for my job, they did nothing to bring me more wealth. While that bride I could have bought, will likely last for 40 years at least, and provided it was not a bridge to nowwhere, I could charge a toll for people using it, and bring myself even more wealth, so that instead of one pair of nikes I could buy 2 or three pair


    Overall there is difference between wealth and economic utility.

    I might place a higher level of economic utility on the nikes rather then having $300 invested in GE prefered shares at a 9% yield, but that does not mean I have as much wealth had I bought the nikes rather then the shares of GE. In actual dollar terms my wealth has gone down in all likelyhood as I would have a hard time selling the nikes for what I paid for them. (while economic utility likely has gone up, at least in the short term)
    You don't get what I'm saying. Wealth is a lot more than just money.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  6. #36
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    Re: State of the economy now and in the future

    Quote Originally Posted by USA-1 View Post
    And what do you believe will lead us into a new era of prosperity?
    More debt? All the bubbles have burst and there ain't no more around the corner.
    I am open to anyone that can show something that will pull us out of this. Give me something to have hope.
    A prosperous economy is dynamic and does not rely on particular industry alone.
    Blue collar workers have a lot more to fear from machines replacing their jobs than Chinese or Indian workers.

    That brings other jobs like robotic techs and maintenance.

    If anything those other less technologically developed counties have more to worry about us replacing their cheap outsourced labor with things that don't get sick, don't need insurance and don't need a pay check.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  7. #37
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    Re: State of the economy now and in the future

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    You don't get what I'm saying. Wealth is a lot more than just money.
    I get what you are saying, and in my opinion feel you are wrong


    You are confusing wealth with economic utility

    I might value getting someone to cut my grass every week but I am not increasing my wealth by paying someone to do so.

    What I am doing is placing a higher economic utility on my time spent doing other things rather then cutting my own grass.

    I might place a higher economic utility on a 50 inch plasma TV, but the minute I take it out of the store my wealth will have gone down, while my economic utility (satifaction) will have gone up.

    Overall just because I "value" something at a certain level does not mean that my wealth is equal to that value

  8. #38
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    Re: State of the economy now and in the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    I get what you are saying, and in my opinion feel you are wrong


    You are confusing wealth with economic utility

    I might value getting someone to cut my grass every week but I am not increasing my wealth by paying someone to do so.

    What I am doing is placing a higher economic utility on my time spent doing other things rather then cutting my own grass.

    I might place a higher economic utility on a 50 inch plasma TV, but the minute I take it out of the store my wealth will have gone down, while my economic utility (satifaction) will have gone up.

    Overall just because I "value" something at a certain level does not mean that my wealth is equal to that value
    Why differentiate between money and "economic utility?" When we buy something, it is because we value the product more than the money we used to purchase it with.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  9. #39
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    Re: State of the economy now and in the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    A prosperous economy is dynamic and does not rely on particular industry alone.
    Blue collar workers have a lot more to fear from machines replacing their jobs than Chinese or Indian workers.

    That brings other jobs like robotic techs and maintenance.

    If anything those other less technologically developed counties have more to worry about us replacing their cheap outsourced labor with things that don't get sick, don't need insurance and don't need a pay check.
    And we are not a prosperous economy anymore. We are an economy based on debt that is spiraling down the toilet.
    The machines, robots, techs and maintenance jobs will be outsourced too. Already happening.
    Manufacturing is a sector not an industry. That along with agriculture are the most important parts of a thriving economy. What do you think is making China the booming country it is? They are us 50 years ago.
    "This Administration will constantly strive to promote an ownership society in America. We want more people owning their own home. It is in our national interest that more people own their own home. After all, if you own your own home, you have a vital stake in the future of our country."" GWB

  10. #40
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    Re: State of the economy now and in the future

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Why differentiate between money and "economic utility?" When we buy something, it is because we value the product more than the money we used to purchase it with.
    Or we need it more than the money.
    "This Administration will constantly strive to promote an ownership society in America. We want more people owning their own home. It is in our national interest that more people own their own home. After all, if you own your own home, you have a vital stake in the future of our country."" GWB

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