Is a Completely Secular Government Really so Bad?

Caine · 12-13-05, 08:25 PM

There has been alot of talk about Secularism in America around the holidays.
Alot of people are trying to make secularism seem like this horrible horrible thing.
Im on a conversion path to Judaism, so im not some "godless liberal" as im certain someone will attempt to call me...
Reguardless, I don't understand why everyone has to throw thier religion out in the public and all over the place, and get angry when an interpretation of the law, which is based on Thomas Jefferson's own writings, state that the government shouldn't be involved in religious affairs whatsoever. Im perfectly fine with the government staying far away from religion, religious holidays, religious organizations, religion in school, reguardless of what the religion is, be it Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. The only religion in school that I agree with is that which is taught in a History class, and only to its point of historical value. No scripture, no school mandated prayer, etc. What students do in the hallways on thier own time is a different story of course.

So, let me ask..... is a secular government really so bad?
And if it is, why? And what religion should be made out to be better than the other in this non-secular society?

I meant to make this a poll.....Maybe an admin can help me out with that...

Australianlibertarian · 12-13-05, 08:41 PM

I don't have a problem with a secular government.

What it means, is that the individual must practice their faith in their own religious buildings or the comfort of their homes.

The religious right in any country in the globe hate this. Religious conservatives, around the world seem to think that because a certain religion is practiced by a majority of a population, they seem to think that this gives them a mandate to say that society inherently revolves around this religion, and therefore government should mandate this religion.

Secularism protects all religious beliefs, because it states that government should not be mandating or getting involved with religion, and that government should not make laws based on religious theory.

Maybe SOME religious conservatives despise secularism so much, because secularism threatens the collective power they have. Secularism forces faith to become an individual belief. If that happened religion as we know it, would be deeply under threat.

If you doubt secularism, then if refer anyone to look at Turkey. It was Ataturk's secularisation

program, that moved Turkey out of it's Islamic conservative stagnation, and progressed the country in ways that other Islamic or nearby Arab neighbours could only dream of.

The Real McCoy · 12-13-05, 09:09 PM

Not at all. I believe the government of any country should be a secular one, indifferent to all religious beliefs.

I only have a problem when secularism begins to infringe on the rights of citizens. Many seem to think the first amendment advocates a freedom FROM religion and not freedom OF religion.

Caine · 12-13-05, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real McCoy

Not at all. I believe the government of any country should be a secular one, indifferent to all religious beliefs.

I only have a problem when secularism begins to infringe on the rights of citizens. Many seem to think the first amendment advocates a freedom FROM religion and not freedom OF religion.

I disagree that secularism in the government infringes on the rights of the citizens.
And I would be willing to hear your opinion on how secularism..... in the government......infringes on the rights of the citizens.

The Real McCoy · 12-13-05, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caine

I disagree that secularism in the government infringes on the rights of the citizens.
And I would be willing to hear your opinion on how secularism..... in the government......infringes on the rights of the citizens.

I never said secularism in the government infringing on rights. Please re-read my post.

Hornburger · 12-13-05, 10:08 PM

I believe it is best to have a completely secular government. One of the most basic freedoms in this country is freedom of religion. By promoting a certain type of religion, certain religions are promoted over others. And besides, what about those people who don't believe in God? Are they "not American" because they don't agree with the religious principles established by the government? The spirit of the "freedom of religion" laws are to allow people to worship whomever they please, if anyone at all. By having the government promote religion, the government is basically telling its citizens that they too should be religious.

I think Church and State should be COMPLETELY seperate. No forcing of religious beliefs on anyone. Let people think as they please.

hiker · 12-13-05, 10:39 PM

Conservatives have no problem with the government being secular. There do seem to be a lot of people on the anti-religion side that believe conservative government does want to promote Christianity. Only the complete expungement of anything even remotely connected to organized religion from public life will serve to appease these people. Which is not going to happen. Nor should it.

An overwhelming majority of Americans are Christians. To those people, their faith comes before work, friends, even family. The government of this country is remarkable in the restraint shown by its political leaders when it comes to appeasing this majority and actually goes out of its way to avoid endorsing Christianity or any other religion. Despite being one of the most religious nations on Earth, (and the political gains to be had from appealing to the faithful) we are incredibly secular in our approach to politics, government, and freedom of religion. But you wouldn't ever know it, if you listen to those whom believe the slightest whisper of faith in public is like the mightiest roar of an attacking lion.

Simply put, the argument is needless. We are a secular nation. Always have been, always will be. Just because a leader has his faith, and doesn't mind telling people about it, that does not mean he is imposing anything on you. That just means that the government mirrors its citizens, which is how things work in a representative democracy. I am obviously referring to Bush here, but I distinctly remember Pres. Clinton attending services regularly and doing his best to make sure everyone knew he was there. I don't remember anyone asking this type of question way back then, I guess it takes a Republican president to make some folks believe we are now living in a neo-theocracy. Wrong. This is a secular government of a religious nation. Be proud of the founding fathers for looking out for people of other religions and us nonbelievers. And be happy you don't live in Iran, then you would know what a non-secular government really looks like.

Caine · 12-13-05, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real McCoy

I never said secularism in the government infringing on rights. Please re-read my post.

Re read the title of this thread....

Deegan · 12-13-05, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hiker

Conservatives have no problem with the government being secular. There do seem to be a lot of people on the anti-religion side that believe conservative government does want to promote Christianity. Only the complete expungement of anything even remotely connected to organized religion from public life will serve to appease these people. Which is not going to happen. Nor should it.

An overwhelming majority of Americans are Christians. To those people, their faith comes before work, friends, even family. The government of this country is remarkable in the restraint shown by its political leaders when it comes to appeasing this majority and actually goes out of its way to avoid endorsing Christianity or any other religion. Despite being one of the most religious nations on Earth, (and the political gains to be had from appealing to the faithful) we are incredibly secular in our approach to politics, government, and freedom of religion. But you wouldn't ever know it, if you listen to those whom believe the slightest whisper of faith in public is like the mightiest roar of an attacking lion.

Simply put, the argument is needless. We are a secular nation. Always have been, always will be. Just because a leader has his faith, and doesn't mind telling people about it, that does not mean he is imposing anything on you. That just means that the government mirrors its citizens, which is how things work in a representative democracy. I am obviously referring to Bush here, but I distinctly remember Pres. Clinton attending services regularly and doing his best to make sure everyone knew he was there. I don't remember anyone asking this type of question way back then, I guess it takes a Republican president to make some folks believe we are now living in a neo-theocracy. Wrong. This is a secular government of a religious nation. Be proud of the founding fathers for looking out for people of other religions and us nonbelievers. And be happy you don't live in Iran, then you would know what a non-secular government really looks like.

Well said my friend, well said, I simply can't add anything more, you have expressed yourself brilliantly here.

Caine · 12-13-05, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hiker

Conservatives have no problem with the government being secular. There do seem to be a lot of people on the anti-religion side that believe conservative government does want to promote Christianity. Only the complete expungement of anything even remotely connected to organized religion from public life will serve to appease these people. Which is not going to happen. Nor should it.

An overwhelming majority of Americans are Christians. To those people, their faith comes before work, friends, even family. The government of this country is remarkable in the restraint shown by its political leaders when it comes to appeasing this majority and actually goes out of its way to avoid endorsing Christianity or any other religion. Despite being one of the most religious nations on Earth, (and the political gains to be had from appealing to the faithful) we are incredibly secular in our approach to politics, government, and freedom of religion. But you wouldn't ever know it, if you listen to those whom believe the slightest whisper of faith in public is like the mightiest roar of an attacking lion.

Simply put, the argument is needless. We are a secular nation. Always have been, always will be. Just because a leader has his faith, and doesn't mind telling people about it, that does not mean he is imposing anything on you. That just means that the government mirrors its citizens, which is how things work in a representative democracy. I am obviously referring to Bush here, but I distinctly remember Pres. Clinton attending services regularly and doing his best to make sure everyone knew he was there. I don't remember anyone asking this type of question way back then, I guess it takes a Republican president to make some folks believe we are now living in a neo-theocracy. Wrong. This is a secular government of a religious nation. Be proud of the founding fathers for looking out for people of other religions and us nonbelievers. And be happy you don't live in Iran, then you would know what a non-secular government really looks like.

I have a few problems with this post, but the major problem I have with this post is the fact that you are attempting to turn this into a partisan debate, which, other than my defense of myself from what others try to call me in different threads (my mention of not being a godless liberal) nobody has really mentioned any partisan issues in this. This should be a completely non-partisan debate. Of course, the Australian mentioned partisan-ship, but I'll get to that in a different post.

Anyhow, you believe that the strong support in government to have schools teach "religious science" is secularism????? Creationism is not based on science, and thus, does not belong in a science class, but, rather, a theology class. One Example.

Two, the government has... god in the pledge....god in the courthouse....trying to put god in the school (in some places has it).....god is all over government property (not to include military bases, which have services for many different religions and denominations).... in most of these cases, specific christian beliefs are emphasized.

Until this is not around... how exactly are we a COMPLETELY secular government?