View Poll Results: Is it any of the governments business what consenting adults do with each other?

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  • Yes

    8 13.56%
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    51 86.44%
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Thread: Whos business is it?

  1. #71
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    Anyway, Panache, I have a bone to pick with you.

    I would prefer, when you next want to point out the similarities between the same-sex marriage issue and the minimum wage issue, that you couch it in just those terms.

    I dislike the method used, as no one knew what you were talking about at first.

    I disagree with your opinion that since it’s none of our business what two persons do in bed, or when trading Pokémon cards, then it’s none of our business how much one person pays another, or what taxes are taken out of a given transaction.

    I consider the two to be different.

    Which is not to say that I entirely agree with the current minimum wage setup, or with the taxes we currently pay.

    But in regards to taxes, what would you prefer as a tax system, if any?

    And if none, what method of paying for national defense (and/or whatever other government systems) would you suggest?

    Further, what are your thoughts on minimum wage standards, and their effect, or lack thereof, and it’s potential effect, if any?

    I don’t consider these issues much, so I probably won’t be a good debate opponent.

    But throw it at me anyway.
    Last edited by The Mark; 01-27-10 at 09:12 PM.
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  2. #72
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    Anyway, Panache, I have a bone to pick with you.

    I would prefer, when you next want to point out the similarities between the same-sex marriage issue and the minimum wage issue, that you couch it in just those terms.

    I dislike the method used, as no one knew what you were talking about at first.
    You don't have to like it. I'm sorry you weren't able to equate government minding its own business to anything but sex.

    I disagree with your opinion that since it’s none of our business what two persons do in bed, or when trading Pokémon cards, then it’s none of our business how much one person pays another, or what taxes are taken out of a given transaction.
    How exactly are pokemon cards different from any other form of capital? They exist. They have value. They can be exchanged for other things of value. They aren't just like capital, they are capital.

    But in regards to taxes, what would you prefer as a tax system, if any?

    And if none, what method of paying for national defense (and/or whatever other government systems) would you suggest?
    I would suggest that we should be governed by a voluntary co-op. You want any say in how the government spends its resources? You have to contribute to those resources by paying your co-op dues. You want to take advantage of any programs or resources available to you through the government? You have to be part of the co-op.

    Certainly it would be impractical to defend only the co-op members from an invading nation and not the people who chose not to join, but hey, thats not the fault of the people who choose not to join, so the co-op members should just accept that they will be benefitting people other than themselves for free.

    Further, what are your thoughts on minimum wage standards, and their effect, or lack thereof, and it’s potential effect, if any?
    How do you mean?

  3. #73
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yep. Terrified. Petrified. Stupified...of you.



    That sums up your point of view quite well, and illustrates quite clearly that we have little common ground from which to debate the subject.
    So what you're saying is that you got pwned by post #62?

  4. #74
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    You don't have to like it. I'm sorry you weren't able to equate government minding its own business to anything but sex.
    That's not what I meant at all. I wasn't taking issue with your comparison, I was taking issue with the method you used to make it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    How exactly are pokemon cards different from any other form of capital? They exist. They have value. They can be exchanged for other things of value. They aren't just like capital, they are capital.
    And I would bet you are taxed for buying them in most states, so like most capital, they are subject to some kind of tax. The act of trading them, however, is not taxable…yet.

    I suppose we should revert to your comparison of government interference into our sex lives to minimum wage and taxes.
    I can definitely agree with no government interference into our sex lives.

    Further, in a perfect world, government would not interfere into anything at all. But we don’t live in a perfect world, and some things seem to me as necessary government interference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    I would suggest that we should be governed by a voluntary co-op. You want any say in how the government spends its resources? You have to contribute to those resources by paying your co-op dues. You want to take advantage of any programs or resources available to you through the government? You have to be part of the co-op.
    Co-op government...interesting idea. Knee-jerk reaction is: I don't really like it. But then I don't know enough to decide either way, really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Certainly it would be impractical to defend only the co-op members from an invading nation and not the people who chose not to join, but hey, thats not the fault of the people who choose not to join, so the co-op members should just accept that they will be benefitting people other than themselves for free.
    Hmm… I still don’t like it. But, again, I don’t know enough about the various government system options to really know how to respond.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    How do you mean?
    I mean:
    What are your thoughts on the current minimum wage standards in the US, and their effect on wages and job growth, among other things.

    Also, what are your thoughts on removing/revising the current minimum wage standards in the US, and the effect of such on wages and job growth, among other things.
    Education.

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  5. #75
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    People tolerate government interference where they have been conditioned to allow it or forced. (or, when the government is actually operating within proper bounds, they consent to the intrusion as necessary)

    Government is, apparently, not that interested in exploiting the sexual relationships of its citizens because the exchange is more personal than a typical exchange of labor for cash (and less portable and easy to exchange)--otherwise there probably would be an exploitative mechanism in place.

    The currency that we exchange for labor and services is all the property of the federal reserve. By using it (accepting it in exchange for our labor, spending it, etc), we consent to paying the taxes associated with it. We have little choice in the matter.

    Personally, I'd rather that there be no income tax and that currency have actual value beyond the full faith & credit of the US Gov't, but our government, economy, and even society is now built around this system, in which the govermnent--as a 3rd party-- has access to our labor, because people in the past have allowed the encroachment to happen.

    that's my view.
    Last edited by other; 01-27-10 at 10:30 PM.

  6. #76
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    That's not what I meant at all. I wasn't taking issue with your comparison, I was taking issue with the method you used to make it.
    Why is that?

    And I would bet you are taxed for buying them in most states, so like most capital, they are subject to some kind of tax. The act of trading them, however, is not taxable…yet.
    It more than just tax. If you have a pokemon card that I know will soon be worth a lot more because production of it is being discontinued, and I get you to trade it for a common card that can be found in any starter deck, the government still won't interfere, even if the value of the card is thousands of dollars (as some collectibles actually are).

    If I pull the exact same thing with stocks, I can go to jail, even if we are just dealing with a few penny stocks worth less than the change in my pocket.

    I suppose we should revert to your comparison of government interference into our sex lives to minimum wage and taxes.
    I can definitely agree with no government interference into our sex lives.
    Ok, suppose that two consenting adults voluntarily enter into an arrangement where one of them has all the power, and the other is treated like a slave. These are actually fairly common sexual arrangements. Often involving chains, and ball gags and other fun toys.

    Is it ok for the government to interfere then? It obviously isn't fair for one person to have all the power and another to be treated like a slave.

    Further, in a perfect world, government would not interfere into anything at all. But we don’t live in a perfect world, and some things seem to me as necessary government interference.
    I don't entirely disagree. If one person doesn't consent to an agreement, and the other person uses the threat of violence to compel them, that is when the government should step in. Non-consent is the line of debarkation where and arbiter becomes necessary. Until that line of non-consent is crossed, why should the government be involved in voluntary arrangements?

    Co-op government...interesting idea. Knee-jerk reaction is: I don't really like it. But then I don't know enough to decide either way, really.
    What don't you like about it?

    What are your thoughts on the current minimum wage standards in the US, and their effect on wages and job growth, among other things.

    Also, what are your thoughts on removing/revising the current minimum wage standards in the US, and the effect of such on wages and job growth, among other things.
    I think minimum wage is wrong. People should be allowed to determine, and should in fact be responsible for determining, the value of their own labour.

    I don't find speculation on the economic effects it will have any more relevant than speculation on the economic effects freeing the slaves would have had back in the day. Even assuming that freeing the slaves would have caused a complete breakdown in the production of cotton, leading to a devastating collapse of US industry, that wouldn't have made slavery justifiable.

    I am sure it would have mattered a great deal to Kandahar whether setting the black people free was "practical" or not, but i just wouldn't have mattered to me.

  7. #77
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    The currency that we exchange for labor and services is all the property of the federal reserve. By using it (accepting it in exchange for our labor, spending it, etc), we consent to paying the taxes associated with it. We have little choice in the matter.
    Excellent. So the form of currency we use is what makes the government one of the consenting parties in the agreement. So would you say then that if a company were to pay their employee in stocks (or pokemon cards for that matter), that that income should not be taxable?

  8. #78
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Hey TM, that's great, but suppose instead of exchanging fluids, two consenting adult males voluntarily agree to exchange pokemon cards instead, or to exchange casserole recipes. Now whose business is it?
    What if they want to exchange their flesh, as in eating each other, like in that German case?

    Or their organs? Organ Exchange, anyone?
    Last edited by nonpareil; 01-27-10 at 10:40 PM.

  9. #79
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Excellent. So the form of currency we use is what makes the government one of the consenting parties in the agreement. So would you say then that if a company were to pay their employee in stocks (or pokemon cards for that matter), that that income should not be taxable?
    Should they? I would say no...

    But dollar values are attached to shares when they are traded, no? (just like other commodities)

    It's all based upon the cash.

    IMO, taxes should be levied directly, and only upon goods and services that are voluntarily purchased, not on incomes. What people make is nobody's business but the one who earned it.
    Last edited by other; 01-27-10 at 10:50 PM.

  10. #80
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    If two consenting adult males voluntarily agree to exchange fluids, is it any of the governments business?
    It depends if they do it in public or private........
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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