View Poll Results: Is it any of the governments business what consenting adults do with each other?

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  • Yes

    8 13.56%
  • No

    51 86.44%
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Thread: Whos business is it?

  1. #31
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    Well, at the time of the original question, no one had an F'in clue what you were really asking, and so voted on the obvious answer of "no" to the actual poll question.

    Said poll has no bearing whatsoever on the totally different question, "Should the government have any say in what an employer pays their employees."
    That is not a totally different question. It is in fact not only a similar question, but an identical question. This is the question as it was, and as it is now:

    Is it any of the governments business what consenting adults do with each other?
    I will admit however that I should have added a third option to the poll:

    C) It's none of the government's business, unless they are engaging in something I personally disagree with, in which case, of course it's the governments business.

  2. #32
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Fair enough. Now lets go back to the personal sphere.

    Too many people try to take advantage of people sexually or emotionally. Sometimes men pretend to feel like they are in love when they are really only after sex. If the government's job is suddenly to keep people from taking advantage of each other, and if what consenting adults agree to do with each other is suddenly any of its business, then what do you think the government should do about consenting adults taking emotional advantage of other consenting adults?
    Taking advantage of someone emotionally does not have the same effect as taking advantage of someone financially. It is apples and oranges.

    The state has little interest outside of infringing on someones intellectual property about emotional anything. The state does however have a vested interest in taking advantage of someone financially whether it be the employee or employer or just a contract between equals.

    Following this line, the original question amounts to nothing more than an ambiguous assertion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Perhaps there should be a law that say that if one person says "I love you" to another person, and then gets laid by that person, that the two should be legally required to stay together for at least six months after the initial profession of love.
    It has no bearing on government interest one way or the other as it is not any kind of contract.

    When people exchange goods or services a contract is made in one form or another. Be it written or verbal etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    This might go a long ways towards helping ensure that people don't take emotional advantage of other people by throwing around the "L" word just to get in their pants.
    This is just a red herring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    What do you think? Would this be a good law?
    I think I have stated quite clearly my position above.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 01-23-10 at 11:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  3. #33
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Is it any of the governments business what consenting adults do with each other?
    Yes. It involves much more than your original question implied or represented.

    As I said nothing more than a fallacy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  4. #34
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    That is not a totally different question. It is in fact not only a similar question, but an identical question. This is the question as it was, and as it is now:
    Is it any of the governments business what consenting adults do with each other?
    Perhaps not a totally different question, but it was followed by the first post (by you), in which you asked a different and leading question, namely:
    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    If two consenting adult males voluntarily agree to exchange fluids, is it any of the governments business?
    Thus leading any who spent the time to read one line of text to believe that you were asking a question relating to the gay marriage debate, or perhaps two guys bartering with containers of some fluid...but probably the former.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    I will admit however that I should have added a third option to the poll:

    C) It's none of the government's business, unless they are engaging in something I personally disagree with, in which case, of course it's the governments business.
    That wouldn't have helped much, as it would only have increased the impression (which I seriously doubt was unintentional) that this thread was related to the gay marriage debate.
    Education.

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  5. #35
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    Taking advantage of someone emotionally does not have the same effect as taking advantage of someone financially. It is apples and oranges.
    The effect can certainly be as devastating. It can certainly be deemed as important. What makes one the governments business and the other not?

    The state has little interest outside of infringing on someones intellectual property about emotional anything. The state does however have a vested interest in taking advantage of someone financially whether it be the employee or employer or just a contract between equals.
    Why? Remember we are talking about consenting adults, who are engaged in mutually agreed upon arrangements, which either of them can walk away from at any time.

    Either you believe that people have the agency to make their own damn decisions about their own lives, or you believe that they need a fu*king nanny to make the important decisions for them.

    If someone gets taken advantage of, emotionally, financially, or otherwise, boo hoo. Maybe they will learn from it, maybe they won't. It isn't any of the governments business either way. The government should only step in in the case of non-consent.

    People seem to understand that when it comes to sex, as the poll shows, but then get confused when it comes to money.

  6. #36
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    The effect can certainly be as devastating. It can certainly be deemed as important. What makes one the governments business and the other not?

    Why? Remember we are talking about consenting adults, who are engaged in mutually agreed upon arrangements, which either of them can walk away from at any time.

    Either you believe that people have the agency to make their own damn decisions about their own lives, or you believe that they need a fu*king nanny to make the important decisions for them.

    If someone gets taken advantage of, emotionally, financially, or otherwise, boo hoo. Maybe they will learn from it, maybe they won't. It isn't any of the governments business either way. The government should only step in in the case of non-consent.

    People seem to understand that when it comes to sex, as the poll shows, but then get confused when it comes to money.
    If you cannot understand the difference, I feel sorry for you.

    I really don't want to get involved in an argument riddled with fallacy arguments to begin with.

    Have a good night bud.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  7. #37
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    Perhaps not a totally different question, but it was followed by the first post (by you), in which you asked a different and leading question, namely:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Panache
    If two consenting adult males voluntarily agree to exchange fluids, is it any of the governments business?
    Thus leading any who spent the time to read one line of text to believe that you were asking a question relating to the gay marriage debate, or perhaps two guys bartering with containers of some fluid...but probably the former.
    Well, its hardly my fault if people want to artificially limit the scope of the debate in their own heads. The sexual aspect of people sticking their nose where it doesn't belong seemed like a good place to start.

    That wouldn't have helped much, as it would only have increased the impression (which I seriously doubt was unintentional) that this thread was related to the gay marriage debate.
    You seem to be under the impression that I was using sexuality as a guise to talk about capitalism. This is incorrect. I have said it before and I shall say it again. This thread is about people (and government) sticking their noses where they don't belong. Sexuality is an aspect of that, financial agreements are another aspect of that.

    Moving right along, we find that the initial principal (which everyone seems to give lip service to at least) that what happens between two consenting adults is no one's business but their own, also has some bearing on wage disparity between genders.

    Supposing that I (being a consenting adult) and a woman (also being a consenting adult), both voluntarily enter into an agreement whereby she agrees to do some work for me, and in exchange I agree to pay her $85,000/yr, such an arrangement according to popularly professed beliefs would be no one's business but hers and mine.

    Now supposing that I (being a consenting adult) and a man (also being a consenting adult) also both voluntarily entered into another agreement whereby he agrees to perform the exact same task in exchange for $100,000/yr, such an arrangement according to popularly professed beliefs would be no one's business but his and mine.

    Now, considering that my agreement with the man is no one's business but his and mine, it stands to reason that it is none of the woman's business, and certainly none of the governments business, despite the fact that she is making 85 cents on the dollar compared to a man for an identical task.

    Accordingly, the only solutions for this gender based wage disparity are for me to suddenly from the goodness of my heart start paying her more (Yeah, like I am going to voluntarily hurt my own bottom line), for me to from the evilness of my heart start paying him less (not great for employee retention) or for her to demand higher pay as a requirement for her continued participation in the arrangement. (which would be a smart move on her part since I am clearly willing to pay more for the services she provides)

    At no point does any of this become the government's business, as it is a voluntary arrangement between consenting adults.

  8. #38
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    If you cannot understand the difference, I feel sorry for you.
    Well, I genuinely do not understand the difference, and your pity is quite touching.

    I really don't want to get involved in an argument riddled with fallacy arguments to begin with.
    I suspect you are lying. As evidence, I present exhibit A: You are posting on an internet debate forum. The very fact that you went through the trouble of setting up a login implies that you love getting involved in arguments riddled with fallacy. It's ok though, so does everyone else here, myself included.

    Have a good night bud.
    I shall. You as well.

  9. #39
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Well, its hardly my fault if people want to artificially limit the scope of the debate in their own heads. The sexual aspect of people sticking their nose where it doesn't belong seemed like a good place to start.
    Perhaps.

    But for most people, there is a difference between interference by a government entity into two persons sexual activates and interference by a government entity into the same two persons financial activates.

    Despite any contention on your part that they are identical, most would disagree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    You seem to be under the impression that I was using sexuality as a guise to talk about capitalism. This is incorrect. I have said it before and I shall say it again. This thread is about people (and government) sticking their noses where they don't belong. Sexuality is an aspect of that, financial agreements are another aspect of that.
    True.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Moving right along, we find that the initial principal (which everyone seems to give lip service to at least) that what happens between two consenting adults is no one's business but their own, also has some bearing on wage disparity between genders.
    I would tend towards agreement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Supposing that I (being a consenting adult) and a woman (also being a consenting adult), both voluntarily enter into an agreement whereby she agrees to do some work for me, and in exchange I agree to pay her $85,000/yr, such an arrangement according to popularly professed beliefs would be no one's business but hers and mine.
    Ok…

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Now supposing that I (being a consenting adult) and a man (also being a consenting adult) also both voluntarily entered into another agreement whereby he agrees to perform the exact same task in exchange for $100,000/yr, such an arrangement according to popularly professed beliefs would be no one's business but his and mine.
    Ok…

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Now, considering that my agreement with the man is no one's business but his and mine, it stands to reason that it is none of the woman's business, and certainly none of the governments business, despite the fact that she is making 85 cents on the dollar compared to a man for an identical task.
    Well, it could be argued that it is indirectly her business in that, armed with information to the effect that the male is making more than her for the same production, she could make a case to you for a pay raise, or she’s going to quit and seek other employment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Accordingly, the only solutions for this gender based wage disparity are for me to suddenly from the goodness of my heart start paying her more (Yeah, like I am going to voluntarily hurt my own bottom line ), for me to from the evilness of my heart start paying him less (not great for employee retention) or for her to demand higher pay as a requirement for her continued participation in the arrangement. Which would be a smart move on her part since I am clearly willing to pay more for the services she provides.
    See above…

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    At no point does any of this become the government's business, as it is a voluntary arrangement between consenting adults.
    I can agree with that.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  10. #40
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    Re: Whos business is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Well, I genuinely do not understand the difference, and your pity is quite touching.
    Cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    I suspect you are lying. As evidence, I present exhibit A: You are posting on an internet debate forum. The very fact that you went through the trouble of setting up a login implies that you love getting involved in arguments riddled with fallacy. It's ok though, so does everyone else here, myself included.
    #1 I don't lie.
    #2 I like to debate this is true. I don't like to debate issues riddled in nonsensical fallacy's right off the bat. It accomplishes nothing.
    #2 The influences of others or yourself do not apply. That is just an anecdotal blanket statement with you projecting to boot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    I shall. You as well.
    Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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