View Poll Results: Should Corproations have "personhood" rights?

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  • Yes, corporations are just like a person

    18 18.18%
  • No, corporations are not just like a person

    81 81.82%
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Thread: Corporate Personhood

  1. #631
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    How is the toaster any less able to speak than a corporation?
    I seriously avoid talking appliances.

  2. #632
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    You're reading it to include entities that are not listed. That interpretation is wrong.
    Congress shall make NO law...abridging freedom of speech.

    No further interpretation necessary.

    It doesn't protect people, or entities - just speech.

    How could I think that when religion and the press are specifically mentioned?
    Do you think it?

    Corporations do not have inalienable rights endowed by their creator, therefore they must be granted them. No we are not following the Constitution, we seem to be interpreting it for corporate interests.
    The First Amendment doesn't say anything about a right to free speech. It limits the power of the government to abridge speech.

    The free press is the idea we want to protect from the government. The people who work for a company involved in the free press have rights as people under the constitution.
    Does the newspaper as an organization, an entity, have those rights? Yes or no?

    I assure you that you are mistaken.
    You want to play dueling resumes?

  3. #633
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    I seriously avoid talking appliances.
    Looks like they do talk after all.

    Red Dwarf - talking Toaster Scene

  4. #634
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    No does it say NOT entities that are not listed.
    I do understand that you must continually present this premise or your argument falls apart but look at it like this. If I say to you and numbnuts that you can have ice cream, according to your argument I'm really saying everyone can have ice cream because I didn't specifically exclude everyone else.

    I've already clearly established that the preamble has no legal force, nor does it say the Constitution was written "for" people, only "by the people."
    I don't recall you clearly establishing that but you are correct. The Preamble has no legal force.

    Although the preamble is not a source of power for any department of the Federal Government, 1 the Supreme Court has often referred to it as evidence of the origin, scope, and purpose of the Constitution. 2 ''Its true office,'' wrote Joseph Story in his COMMENTARIES, ''is to expound the nature and extent and application of the powers actually conferred by the Constitution, and not substantively to create them. For example, the preamble declares one object to be, 'to provide for the common defense.' No one can doubt that this does not enlarge the powers of Congress to pass any measures which they deem useful for the common defence. But suppose the terms of a given power admit of two constructions, the one more restrictive, the other more liberal, and each of them is consistent with the words, but is, and ought to be, governed by the intent of the power; if one could promote and the other defeat the common defence, ought not the former, upon the soundest principles of interpretation, to be adopted?'' 3

    Footnotes

    1 Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11, 22 (1905).

    2 E.g., the Court has read the preamble as bearing witness to the fact that the Constitution emanated from the people and was not the act of sovereign and independent States, McCulloch v. Maryland, 17 U.S. (4 Wheat.) 316, 403 (1819) Chisholm v. Georgia, 2 U.S. (2 Dall.) 419, 471 (1793); Martin v. Hunter's Lessee, 14 U.S. (1 Wheat.) 304, 324 (1816), and that it was made for, and is binding only in, the United States of America. Downes v. Bidwell, 182 U.S. 244, 251 (1901); In re Ross, 140 U.S. 453, 464 (1891).

    3 1 J. Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States (Boston: 1833), 462. For a lengthy exegesis of the preamble phrase by phrase, see M. Adler & W. Gorman, The American Testament (New York: 1975), 63-118.
    What is the purpose of the Constitution? To protect the rights of the people from abridgment by the government.

    People own and control corporations. The distinction is silly. This is about what bank account can buy advertising, by people.
    People own guns too, do guns have free speech? People own and control dishwashers, do they have rights protected too?

  5. #635
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    How exactly is that clear? It says nothing in regards to corporations or the activities of business.
    Last time I checked, corporations are not owned by dolphins, since they can't sign contracts.

    So clearly it's for people.

    It's very clear, to any honest person reading it.

  6. #636
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Looks like they do talk after all.

    Red Dwarf - talking Toaster Scene
    I was thinking more of the "Brave Little Toaster" movies from the 90's.

  7. #637
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    I do understand that you must continually present this premise or your argument falls apart but look at it like this. If I say to you and numbnuts that you can have ice cream, according to your argument I'm really saying everyone can have ice cream because I didn't specifically exclude everyone else.
    Excellent point - and a great chance to demonstrate why the way it is really written matters. The Constitution doesn't read like "you and numbnuts can have ice cream." It says "Congress can't make any laws restricting access to ice cream." That clearly must be read as applying to everyone.

    I don't recall you clearly establishing that but you are correct. The Preamble has no legal force.
    Maybe on a different thread.

    What is the purpose of the Constitution? To protect the rights of the people from abridgment by the government.
    That's one of them, yes.

    People own guns too, do guns have free speech? People own and control dishwashers, do they have rights protected too?
    Ownership isn't what gives them rights, but we can play this absurdity game if you want. Sure, guns have a right to free speech. A law outlawing speech by guns would be disallowed too. Let me know when one is passed and I'll call the ACLU.

    Seriously, if you want to think of this decision as affirming that the people who own corporations having the right to use corporate funds to spend on speech, feel free.
    Last edited by misterman; 02-04-10 at 08:09 PM.

  8. #638
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Last time I checked, corporations are not owned by dolphins, since they can't sign contracts.
    Not with flippers, but I"ll bet you could teach one to use a pen with his teeth. Dolphins are smart.

  9. #639
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    I was thinking more of the "Brave Little Toaster" movies from the 90's.
    That's your problem right there - thinking!

  10. #640
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    People own guns too, do guns have free speech? People own and control dishwashers, do they have rights protected too?
    Now that you've established that you're not aware of the difference between physical objects that aren't humans and legal constructs that join humans, it's clear what the problem is.

    You want to pretend people are things. This certainly explains your socialism, but doesn't aid you in your quest to understand the First Amendment. Since the Constitution was written for people, your assumption that people are things does not apply.

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