View Poll Results: Should Corproations have "personhood" rights?

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  • Yes, corporations are just like a person

    18 18.18%
  • No, corporations are not just like a person

    81 81.82%
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Thread: Corporate Personhood

  1. #621
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Yes, why should 100 years of case law take precedence over what the Constitution actually says?

    The Constitution says the Congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech.

    Your vaunted 100 years of case law is the court's support of legistion that abridges freedom of speech.

    Clearly, applying the Constitution as written voids the case law, which is what this court just did.
    Misterman and I have been and are still covering this so you saying the exact same thing is a bit stupid.

  2. #622
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Here's the First Amendment:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    "Used to connect independent clauses"....you mean like "Congress shall make no law;abridging the freedom of speech".

    Yes, exactly. You see any exemptions on that? If you do, please get your eyes checked.

    What was your point again?

    Oh, yeah.

    Your point was that Congress can make laws abriding freedom of speech.

    You're clearly wrong.

    Just in case you missed it, the FA first says Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech....without exception...and then it says the freedom of the press is inviolate. Meaning that not only is speech protected, but the means of publishing speech to a wider audience is also protected. You will want to note that it makes no exception for "advertising" in the "press".
    I know I promised not to debate with you but *sigh*...
    THe 1st amendment says 1 thing.
    A) Congress shall make no law...
    and then it details 3 things that A is talking about:
    1) respecting an establishment of religion (religion as an idea which includes all religions) or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
    2) abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press
    3) the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    Nowhere does it say anything like, and all entities not specifically listed.

    Now, who or what was the Constitution written for?

    We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    There is nothing there to lead anyone to believe that they are trying to ensure a more perfect union for corporations. Nor does it say establish justice for corporations. nor insure domestic tranquility for corporations. nor provide for the common defense for corporations. nor promote the general welfare of corporations. nor secure the blessings of liberty for corporations. In fact the word "corporation" does not appear anywhere in the preamble nor the body of the Constitution. Including everything not specifically listed is plainly wrong. CAn tree have the blessings of liberty? Can my house have justice?

    The Constitution was written for the people, not for their corporations because there are separate laws for them.

  3. #623
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    So no right in the First Amendment exists independent of the others?

    Please stop embarrassing yourself. There's nothing wrong with how I read the First Amendment.
    I never said that no first amendment right exists independent of the others.
    You're reading it to include entities that are not listed. That interpretation is wrong.

    Yes, exactly. So you think the government could shut down all religious entities and still be respecting freedom of religion, or all newspapers and still be respecting freedom of the press.
    How could I think that when religion and the press are specifically mentioned?

    It's not a matter of what we "need to grant." We have no choice. We are not writing the Constitution here, we are following it.
    Corporations do not have inalienable rights endowed by their creator, therefore they must be granted them. No we are not following the Constitution, we seem to be interpreting it for corporate interests.

    And you are presuming that corporations will have all the rights that people have, but that's not necessarily true.
    I can't even fathom how you built that strawman but maybe you could enlighten me on your presumption.

    Not the "idea" - the newspaper. Please stop playing with words. A newspaper is a business, it - not just the people working there - is protected.
    The free press is the idea we want to protect from the government. The people who work for a company involved in the free press have rights as people under the constitution.

    Understanding this leads you to the conclusion that corporations were never intended to be considered anything more than a vehicle to conduct business separate from personal activities.

    Without actually posting my resume, I assure you that I have a deep knowledge of both the intricacies of the English language and how to interpret laws and the Constitution. Please stick to the topic.
    I assure you that you are mistaken.

  4. #624
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    The First Amendment clearly protects the right of people who own companies to have that company represent them as a public mouthpiece.
    How exactly is that clear? It says nothing in regards to corporations or the activities of business.

  5. #625
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    So I ask again - does this mean the government could shut down a church?
    NO, FOR ****S SAKE BECAUSE RELIGION IS PROTECTED BY NAME IN THE 1ST AMENDMENT. Now, the government could come and shut down a church (the gathering place) for any number of reasons. But it must have legal cause like, building code violations, use for illegal purposes etc.


    An organization. Like the Roman Catholic Church, which has leaders, assets, a governing structure (much like a corporation.) You know, like in "seperation of church and state." Not a physical location, an organization. Could the government ban the Roman Catholic Church from the US? As long as Catholics can gather in a basement?
    You're being obtuse as usual in this thread. The RCC is simply the name of that religious cult. It is part of the RELIGION of Christianity.

    Do I really have to explain that "church" can also mean "religious organization?" Here, the rest of the definitions from your link:

    3. (sometimes initial capital letter) the whole body of Christian believers; Christendom.
    4. (sometimes initial capital letter) any division of this body professing the same creed and acknowledging the same ecclesiastical authority; a Christian denomination: the Methodist Church.
    5. that part of the whole Christian body, or of a particular denomination, belonging to the same city, country, nation, etc.
    6. a body of Christians worshipping in a particular building or constituting one congregation: She is a member of this church.
    7. ecclesiastical organization, power, and affairs, as distinguished from the state: separation of church and state; The missionary went wherever the church sent him.
    8. the clergy and religious officials of a Christian denomination.
    9. the Christian faith: a return of intellectuals to the church.
    10. (initial capital letter) the Christian Church before the Reformation.
    11. (initial capital letter) the Roman Catholic Church.
    12. the clerical profession or calling: After much study and contemplation, he was prepared to enter the church.
    13. a place of public worship of a non-Christian religion.
    14. any non-Christian religious society, organization, or congregation: the Jewish church.
    So you do understand the concept but constantly pretend you don't by asking if the government could shut down the church.


    Sorry Bodhisattva, his constant use of that same argument is tedious.

  6. #626
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    I know I promised not to debate with you but *sigh*...
    THe 1st amendment says 1 thing.
    A) Congress shall make no law...
    and then it details 3 things that A is talking about:
    1) respecting an establishment of religion (religion as an idea which includes all religions) or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
    2) abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press
    3) the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    Nowhere does it say anything like, and all entities not specifically listed.
    No does it say NOT entities that are not listed.

    Now, who or what was the Constitution written for?

    We the people of the United States,
    I've already clearly established that the preamble has no legal force, nor does it say the Constitution was written "for" people, only "by the people."

    The Constitution was written for the people, not for their corporations because there are separate laws for them.
    People own and control corporations. The distinction is silly. This is about what bank account can buy advertising, by people.

  7. #627
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    If your toaster learns to speak, it will have freedom of speech, yes.
    How is the toaster any less able to speak than a corporation? If I can only donate $2500 to a campaign, can't I hold my toaster and claim I should be able to donate another $2500? Can't I speak for my dog the way the CEO can speak for the corporation?

  8. #628
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    NO, FOR ****S SAKE BECAUSE RELIGION IS PROTECTED BY NAME IN THE 1ST AMENDMENT. Now, the government could come and shut down a church (the gathering place) for any number of reasons. But it must have legal cause like, building code violations, use for illegal purposes etc.
    What about a church, the organization?

    You're being obtuse as usual in this thread. The RCC is simply the name of that religious cult. It is part of the RELIGION of Christianity.
    Can the government shut down, or ban, religious organizations? Yes or no?

  9. #629
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    Misterman and I have been and are still covering this so you saying the exact same thing is a bit stupid.
    Hmmm......

    ....so many possibilities....


    hhhhmmmmmm.....

    Just because two of us can read the Constitution and you can't isn't a good reason for you to get snippy, is it?

  10. #630
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    Re: Corporate Personhood

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    I know I promised not to debate with you but *sigh*...
    THe 1st amendment says 1 thing.
    A) Congress shall make no law...
    and then it details 3 things that A is talking about:
    1) respecting an establishment of religion (religion as an idea which includes all religions) or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
    2) abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press
    3) the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    Nowhere does it say anything like, and all entities not specifically listed.
    Yes, that was reserved for the Tenth Amendment.

    Do I need to cite that, or can you find it yourself?

    It's nine amendments below the first one.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    Now, who or what was the Constitution written for?
    We the people.

    The people don't lose their freedoms just because they own stock in a company.

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