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Corporate Personhood

Should Corproations have "personhood" rights?

  • Yes, corporations are just like a person

    Votes: 6 9.4%
  • No, corporations are not just like a person

    Votes: 58 90.6%

  • Total voters
    64
I know I promised not to debate with you but *sigh*...
THe 1st amendment says 1 thing.
A) Congress shall make no law...
and then it details 3 things that A is talking about:
1) respecting an establishment of religion (religion as an idea which includes all religions) or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
2) abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press
3) the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Nowhere does it say anything like, and all entities not specifically listed.

No does it say NOT entities that are not listed.

Now, who or what was the Constitution written for?

We the people of the United States,

I've already clearly established that the preamble has no legal force, nor does it say the Constitution was written "for" people, only "by the people."

The Constitution was written for the people, not for their corporations because there are separate laws for them.

People own and control corporations. The distinction is silly. This is about what bank account can buy advertising, by people.
 
If your toaster learns to speak, it will have freedom of speech, yes.
How is the toaster any less able to speak than a corporation? If I can only donate $2500 to a campaign, can't I hold my toaster and claim I should be able to donate another $2500? Can't I speak for my dog the way the CEO can speak for the corporation?
 
NO, FOR ****S SAKE BECAUSE RELIGION IS PROTECTED BY NAME IN THE 1ST AMENDMENT. Now, the government could come and shut down a church (the gathering place) for any number of reasons. But it must have legal cause like, building code violations, use for illegal purposes etc.

What about a church, the organization?

You're being obtuse as usual in this thread. The RCC is simply the name of that religious cult. It is part of the RELIGION of Christianity.

Can the government shut down, or ban, religious organizations? Yes or no?
 
Misterman and I have been and are still covering this so you saying the exact same thing is a bit stupid.

Hmmm......

....so many possibilities....


hhhhmmmmmm.....

Just because two of us can read the Constitution and you can't isn't a good reason for you to get snippy, is it?
 
I know I promised not to debate with you but *sigh*...
THe 1st amendment says 1 thing.
A) Congress shall make no law...
and then it details 3 things that A is talking about:
1) respecting an establishment of religion (religion as an idea which includes all religions) or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
2) abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press
3) the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Nowhere does it say anything like, and all entities not specifically listed.

Yes, that was reserved for the Tenth Amendment.

Do I need to cite that, or can you find it yourself?

It's nine amendments below the first one.

Now, who or what was the Constitution written for?

We the people.

The people don't lose their freedoms just because they own stock in a company.
 
You're reading it to include entities that are not listed. That interpretation is wrong.

Congress shall make NO law...abridging freedom of speech.

No further interpretation necessary.

It doesn't protect people, or entities - just speech.

How could I think that when religion and the press are specifically mentioned?

Do you think it?

Corporations do not have inalienable rights endowed by their creator, therefore they must be granted them. No we are not following the Constitution, we seem to be interpreting it for corporate interests.

The First Amendment doesn't say anything about a right to free speech. It limits the power of the government to abridge speech.

The free press is the idea we want to protect from the government. The people who work for a company involved in the free press have rights as people under the constitution.

Does the newspaper as an organization, an entity, have those rights? Yes or no?

I assure you that you are mistaken.

You want to play dueling resumes?
 
No does it say NOT entities that are not listed.
I do understand that you must continually present this premise or your argument falls apart but look at it like this. If I say to you and numbnuts that you can have ice cream, according to your argument I'm really saying everyone can have ice cream because I didn't specifically exclude everyone else.

I've already clearly established that the preamble has no legal force, nor does it say the Constitution was written "for" people, only "by the people."
I don't recall you clearly establishing that but you are correct. The Preamble has no legal force.

Although the preamble is not a source of power for any department of the Federal Government, 1 the Supreme Court has often referred to it as evidence of the origin, scope, and purpose of the Constitution. 2 ''Its true office,'' wrote Joseph Story in his COMMENTARIES, ''is to expound the nature and extent and application of the powers actually conferred by the Constitution, and not substantively to create them. For example, the preamble declares one object to be, 'to provide for the common defense.' No one can doubt that this does not enlarge the powers of Congress to pass any measures which they deem useful for the common defence. But suppose the terms of a given power admit of two constructions, the one more restrictive, the other more liberal, and each of them is consistent with the words, but is, and ought to be, governed by the intent of the power; if one could promote and the other defeat the common defence, ought not the former, upon the soundest principles of interpretation, to be adopted?'' 3

Footnotes

1 Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11, 22 (1905).

2 E.g., the Court has read the preamble as bearing witness to the fact that the Constitution emanated from the people and was not the act of sovereign and independent States, McCulloch v. Maryland, 17 U.S. (4 Wheat.) 316, 403 (1819) Chisholm v. Georgia, 2 U.S. (2 Dall.) 419, 471 (1793); Martin v. Hunter's Lessee, 14 U.S. (1 Wheat.) 304, 324 (1816), and that it was made for, and is binding only in, the United States of America. Downes v. Bidwell, 182 U.S. 244, 251 (1901); In re Ross, 140 U.S. 453, 464 (1891).

3 1 J. Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States (Boston: 1833), 462. For a lengthy exegesis of the preamble phrase by phrase, see M. Adler & W. Gorman, The American Testament (New York: 1975), 63-118.

What is the purpose of the Constitution? To protect the rights of the people from abridgment by the government.

People own and control corporations. The distinction is silly. This is about what bank account can buy advertising, by people.
People own guns too, do guns have free speech? People own and control dishwashers, do they have rights protected too?
 
How exactly is that clear? It says nothing in regards to corporations or the activities of business.

Last time I checked, corporations are not owned by dolphins, since they can't sign contracts.

So clearly it's for people.

It's very clear, to any honest person reading it.
 
I do understand that you must continually present this premise or your argument falls apart but look at it like this. If I say to you and numbnuts that you can have ice cream, according to your argument I'm really saying everyone can have ice cream because I didn't specifically exclude everyone else.

Excellent point - and a great chance to demonstrate why the way it is really written matters. The Constitution doesn't read like "you and numbnuts can have ice cream." It says "Congress can't make any laws restricting access to ice cream." That clearly must be read as applying to everyone.

I don't recall you clearly establishing that but you are correct. The Preamble has no legal force.

Maybe on a different thread.

What is the purpose of the Constitution? To protect the rights of the people from abridgment by the government.

That's one of them, yes.

People own guns too, do guns have free speech? People own and control dishwashers, do they have rights protected too?

Ownership isn't what gives them rights, but we can play this absurdity game if you want. Sure, guns have a right to free speech. A law outlawing speech by guns would be disallowed too. Let me know when one is passed and I'll call the ACLU.

Seriously, if you want to think of this decision as affirming that the people who own corporations having the right to use corporate funds to spend on speech, feel free.
 
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Last time I checked, corporations are not owned by dolphins, since they can't sign contracts.

Not with flippers, but I"ll bet you could teach one to use a pen with his teeth. Dolphins are smart.
 
People own guns too, do guns have free speech? People own and control dishwashers, do they have rights protected too?

Now that you've established that you're not aware of the difference between physical objects that aren't humans and legal constructs that join humans, it's clear what the problem is.

You want to pretend people are things. This certainly explains your socialism, but doesn't aid you in your quest to understand the First Amendment. Since the Constitution was written for people, your assumption that people are things does not apply.
 
I've already clearly established that the preamble has no legal force, nor does it say the Constitution was written "for" people, only "by the people."

It actually states, "We the people", and that means that it was written by the people for the people.
 
What is the purpose of the Constitution? To protect the rights of the people from abridgment by the government.

Yeah.

Guess what we've been saying?

That the First Amendment protects the freedom of the people to speak and publish their thoughts, and corporations are owned by people, the participation of corporation in the national dialogue can not be limited by the government, since to so limit them would be to limit the people that own them.
 
Hmmm......

....so many possibilities....


hhhhmmmmmm.....

Just because two of us can read the Constitution and you can't isn't a good reason for you to get snippy, is it?

it seems like it is two vs. two... and to make an appeal to popularity? Please, don't be so silly... :lol:
 
The people don't lose their freedoms just because they own stock in a company.

That's right, but the company or corporation has no rights to begin with, it is the people within that corporation that have the rights...
 
Last time I checked, corporations are not owned by dolphins, since they can't sign contracts.

So clearly it's for people.

It's very clear, to any honest person reading it.

If it says, states or alludes NOTHING about corporations or companys, how exactly do you arrive that it is "very clear" that it does then?
 
It actually states, "We the people", and that means that it was written by the people for the people.

No, it means it was written by the people. It says nothing about for the people.

The Constitution is about alot of things. Protecting the rights of the people is one of them, but not the only thing.
 
Let's look at the actual case a little closer.

Citizens United is a political group - a group of people who got together to act because they believe in a political cause.

Nobody here would deny that a group of people don't have rights, being people.

Now, that group of people decided to form a corporation to make it easier for them to act in concert. Suddenly they lose their rights because of that? Why?

Other groups - legal entities, not just multitudes of people united - clearly have rights. Political parties, for instance. Or is someone here going to say that political parties have no right to freedom of speech too?
 
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