View Poll Results: Is a single celled human zygote an 'organism'?

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  • Yes, a single celled zygote is in fact an organism

    99 51.30%
  • No, a single celled zygote is not in fact an organism

    94 48.70%
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Thread: Is a single celled human zygote an 'organism'?

  1. #51
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    idea Re: Is a single celled human zygote an 'organism'?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Ok. So, basically, what you are saying is that certain persons, who have been grouped and labeled "pro-choice" by you, are unwilling to accept the obviousity which is:

    If a zygote is an organism, then:

    A human zygote is a human organism.
    You seem to be hung up on labels. The people I am referring to for the most part call themselves 'pro-choice.' If it were up to me to be labeling them, I would likely be banned by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    What I don’t get is why anyone would try to disagree with such an obvious conclusion.
    I can't explain it either.

    Iangb???

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I mean, what effect on the whole “pro-life vs. pro-choice” debate does it have?
    I think they (wisely and to their credit) are trying to anticipate my next line of questioning.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    A human heart, removed from the human body for transplantation, will live for a time, given the right conditions.

    Is that not also a “human organism”?
    No. It is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    But it would by no reasonable person be considered a “human being”, or be granted protection from murder/death.
    You're right about that,... But a removed heart would be no more an "organism" than would a pulled tooth or removed tonsils.

  2. #52
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    Re: Is a single celled human zygote an 'organism'?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    So why does it have no rights? Meaning, what makes it distinct from the baby that comes out 9 months later? What events gives us our rights?
    1. Level of physical development. This includes fully a working nervous system.
    2. The fact that you were born. Read the constitution. It applies to natural born citizens. Not natural unborn organisms.
    3. The fact that an acorn is not a tree.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  3. #53
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    Re: Is a single celled human zygote an 'organism'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    1. Level of physical development. This includes fully a working nervous system.
    So our nervous system gives us rights? You are aware that dogs and cats and fish and many other animals have nervous systems too right? Do they have the same rights that we do?

    2. The fact that you were born. Read the constitution. It applies to natural born citizens. Not natural unborn organisms.

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,"

    Have you ever read the Declaration of Independence? Now hopefully you'll see that when discussing rights these documents are arbitrary because they contain no proof.

    3. The fact that an acorn is not a tree.
    What species is it then?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Is a single celled human zygote an 'organism'?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    So our nervous system gives us rights? You are aware that dogs and cats and fish and many other animals have nervous systems too right? Do they have the same rights that we do?
    Sure. Cats and dogs have as much a right to free speech and the 2nd amendment as we do. I don't think they try to vote all that much though.

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,"

    Have you ever read the Declaration of Independence? Now hopefully you'll see that when discussing rights these documents are arbitrary because they contain no proof.
    Meh. I find it great that you find that the constitution of the U.S. protects natural unborn organisms. But it does not. It explicitly protects natural born citizens & people naturalized in the U.S.

    What species is it then?
    A brain cell is an organism of the human species. But merely being part of our species by way of DNA does not make it a person or grant it all the rights that come as a result of actually being born.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Is a single celled human zygote an 'organism'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Sure. Cats and dogs have as much a right to free speech and the 2nd amendment as we do. I don't think they try to vote all that much though.
    So they have the right to life and infringing on that right to life makes the killing of cats and dogs murder?

    Meh. I find it great that you find that the constitution of the U.S. protects natural unborn organisms. But it does not. It explicitly protects natural born citizens & people naturalized in the U.S.
    Is that what I said? Don't put words into my mouth. I was trying to say that in a discussion of rights, these documents are basically worthless because they prove nothing. Our rights are derived from God, not the constitution.

    A brain cell is an organism of the human species. But merely being part of our species by way of DNA does not make it a person or grant it all the rights that come as a result of actually being born.
    And neither does a brain cell have the capacity to become a fully developed human organism. It is not totipotent like a zygote is. We have to remember though that the cell is human, hence a zygote is human.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Is a single celled human zygote an 'organism'?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    So they have the right to life and infringing on that right to life makes the killing of cats and dogs murder?
    Try killing somebody's dog and see what happens. Michael Vick went to jail for it.

    Is that what I said? Don't put words into my mouth. I was trying to say that in a discussion of rights, these documents are basically worthless because they prove nothing. Our rights are derived from God, not the constitution
    No. My rights are derived from legal documents and my willingness to defend those rights. I do not believe in God. If science proved there was no God tomorrow, I would still have all the rights in the constitution and so would you. Stating otherwise is pure foolishness.

    And neither does a brain cell have the capacity to become a fully developed human organism. It is not totipotent like a zygote is. We have to remember though that the cell is human, hence a zygote is human.
    No. Being human and being a human are not the same thing. My hair is human, my blood cells are human. But are they humans or people with rights? No. They are not.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 01-24-10 at 12:07 PM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Is a single celled human zygote an 'organism'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Try killing somebody's dog and see what happens. Michael Vick went to jail for it.
    That's only because you're destroying someone else's property. Kill a dog in the wild for food and you haven't broken any laws.

    No. My rights are derived from legal documents and my willingness to defend those rights. I do not believe in God. If science proved there was no God tomorrow, I would still have all the rights in the constitution and so would you. Stating otherwise is pure foolishness.
    Then call me foolish because these rights exist in the state of nature. Government is created to merely protect those rights, not to create them. Look at the Declaration.

    No. Being human and being a human are not the same thing. My hair is human, my blood cells are human. But are they humans or people with rights? No. They are not.
    But what differentiates the fully developed human and the zygote? What is the defining moment of becoming human and getting rights?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  8. #58
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    Re: Is a single celled human zygote an 'organism'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Do zygotes procreate? no. Not an organism. No matter what the Oklahoma School of Math might think.
    Yes they do, at the proper time in the life cycle. Did you go to school in Oklahoma or something?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Is a single celled human zygote an 'organism'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    1. Level of physical development. This includes fully a working nervous system.
    2. The fact that you were born. Read the constitution. It applies to natural born citizens. Not natural unborn organisms.
    3. The fact that an acorn is not a tree.
    Learn context my friend, if you want to debate effectively around here.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Is a single celled human zygote an 'organism'?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    That's only because you're destroying someone else's property. Kill a dog in the wild for food and you haven't broken any laws.
    This is simply untrue. Michael Vick killed his own dogs and went to jail for it. This proves they are not "property" as you put it.

    Then call me foolish because these rights exist in the state of nature. Government is created to merely protect those rights, not to create them. Look at the Declaration.
    Rights are man made and enforced. In nature there is no such thing as a right to free speech or a right to vote. If there is please ask your God to come down and show us those laws it created. The burden of proof is on you for claiming where our rights come from.

    But what differentiates the fully developed human and the zygote? What is the defining moment of becoming human and getting rights?
    LEVEL OF DEVELOPMENT. I do not care about what potential it has to become a person. I care about what is a person and what isn't. A zygote is by no means a person, it has zero viability outside the fetus. I can't stress this enough.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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