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Do you have a conceal and carry license?

Do you have a conceal and carry permit?

  • Total voters
    66
Dirty Harry said:
Actually that isn't always true. There was a case of road rage here a few years ago that escalated into a shooting. The guy just "could not understand what came over him." Rage can make law abiding people do things they otherwise wouldn't. In this case he had a gun and used it. Lucky no one was killed.
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this is one guy, and he was by your anecdote, anyting but "law abiding".... The gun didn't turn him into a kill crazy madman, he did that all on his own....
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
this is one guy, and he was by your anecdote, anyting but "law abiding".... The gun didn't turn him into a kill crazy madman, he did that all on his own....
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He was a law abiding citizen until he got pissed off. Most people are law abiding citizens right up to the point where they commit a crime. You are right that guns don't turn people into criminals. It is just a tool for them.
Like the guy that shot his wife and then himself this week in Hugo Minn. He had never broken the law before. The gun he used was just a tool. Having a gun in the house did not make his wife safer in this case.
 
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Dirty Harry said:
He was a law abiding citizen until he got pissed off. Most people are law abiding citizens right up to the point where they commit a crime. You are right that guns don't turn people into criminals. It is just a tool for them.
Like the guy that shot his wife and then himself this week in Hugo Minn. He had never broken the law before. The gun he used was just a tool. Having a gun in the house did not make his wife safer in this case.
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* Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year—or about 6,850 times a day.1 This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.


* More guns, less crime. In the decade of the 1990s, the number of guns in this country increased by roughly 40 million—even while the murder rate decreased by almost 40% percent.7 Accidental gun deaths in the home decreased by almost 40 percent as well.8


* A study claiming "guns are three times more likely to kill you than help you" is a total fraud. Even using the low figures from the Clinton Justice Department, firearms are used almost 50 times more often to save life than to take life.15 More importantly, however, the figure claiming one is three times more likely to be killed by one’s own gun is a total lie:
* Researcher Don Kates reveals that all available data now indicates that the "home gun homicide victims [in the flawed study] were killed using guns not kept in the victim's home."16
* In other words, the victims were NOT murdered with their own guns! They were killed "by intruders who brought their own guns to the victim's household."17




:shrug:


 
Dirty Harry said:
He was a law abiding citizen until he got pissed off. Most people are law abiding citizens right up to the point where they commit a crime. You are right that guns don't turn people into criminals. It is just a tool for them.
Like the guy that shot his wife and then himself this week in Hugo Minn. He had never broken the law before. The gun he used was just a tool. Having a gun in the house did not make his wife safer in this case.
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If he did not have a gun he would have used a knife or his hands. Your point means nothing.

More lives are saved by carry permits.

Fact Sheet: Guns Save Lives
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
* Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year—or about 6,850 times a day.1 This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.



[/I]
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These statistics seem to be made up to me. This isn't the country I know. I live in a town of about 20,000 people. People do not carry here and there is virtually no crime. There probably hasn't been a case of a gun being used for defence since the 1950s.
I guess if I ever felt the need to carry a gun to feel safe I would move. I do however keep a shotgun by my bed.
 
Dirty Harry said:
These statistics seem to be made up to me. This isn't the country I know. I live in a town of about 20,000 people. People do not carry here and there is virtually no crime. There probably hasn't been a case of a gun being used for defence since the 1950s.
I guess if I ever felt the need to carry a gun to feel safe I would move. I do however keep a shotgun by my bed.
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How would you know?



Footnotes, and sources as you can see. not made up at all.


1 Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun," 86 The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, 1 (Fall 1995):164.
Dr. Kleck is a professor in the school of criminology and criminal justice at Florida State University in Tallahassee. He has researched extensively and published several essays on the gun control issue. His book, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, has become a widely cited source in the gun control debate. In fact, this book earned Dr. Kleck the prestigious American Society of Criminology Michael J. Hindelang award for 1993. This award is given for the book published in the past two to three years that makes the most outstanding contribution to criminology.

Even those who don't like the conclusions Dr. Kleck reaches, cannot argue with his impeccable research and methodology. In "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," Marvin E. Wolfgang writes that, "What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator. . . . I have to admit my admiration for the care and caution expressed in this article and this research. Can it be true that about two million instances occur each year in which a gun was used as a defensive measure against crime? It is hard to believe. Yet, it is hard to challenge the data collected. We do not have contrary evidence." Wolfgang, "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, at 188.

Wolfgang says there is no "contrary evidence." Indeed, there are more than a dozen national polls—one of which was conducted by The Los Angeles Times—that have found figures comparable to the Kleck-Gertz study. Even the Clinton Justice Department (through the National Institute of Justice) found there were as many as 1.5 million defensive users of firearms every year. See National Institute of Justice, "Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms," Research in Brief (May 1997).

As for Dr. Kleck, readers of his materials may be interested to know that he is a member of the ACLU, Amnesty International USA, and Common Cause. He is not and has never been a member of or contributor to any advocacy group on either side of the gun control debate.

2 According to the National Safety Council, the total number of gun deaths (by accidents, suicides and homicides) account for less than 30,000 deaths per year. See Injury Facts, published yearly by the National Safety Council, Itasca, Illinois.
 
"Estimates of these types of defensive uses of firearms
are wide ranging, from a low of 65,000 to 82,000 annual defensive
gun uses (DGUs) reported to the U.S. Department of Justice's National
Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), to a high end of some 2.1-2.5
million annual DGUs"
I do not put a lot of faith in statistics since 98% of them are made up.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
How would you know?



Footnotes, and sources as you can see. not made up at all.


1 Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun," 86 The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, 1 (Fall 1995):164.
Dr. Kleck is a professor in the school of criminology and criminal justice at Florida State University in Tallahassee. He has researched extensively and published several essays on the gun control issue. His book, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, has become a widely cited source in the gun control debate. In fact, this book earned Dr. Kleck the prestigious American Society of Criminology Michael J. Hindelang award for 1993. This award is given for the book published in the past two to three years that makes the most outstanding contribution to criminology.

Even those who don't like the conclusions Dr. Kleck reaches, cannot argue with his impeccable research and methodology. In "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," Marvin E. Wolfgang writes that, "What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator. . . . I have to admit my admiration for the care and caution expressed in this article and this research. Can it be true that about two million instances occur each year in which a gun was used as a defensive measure against crime? It is hard to believe. Yet, it is hard to challenge the data collected. We do not have contrary evidence." Wolfgang, "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, at 188.

Wolfgang says there is no "contrary evidence." Indeed, there are more than a dozen national polls—one of which was conducted by The Los Angeles Times—that have found figures comparable to the Kleck-Gertz study. Even the Clinton Justice Department (through the National Institute of Justice) found there were as many as 1.5 million defensive users of firearms every year. See National Institute of Justice, "Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms," Research in Brief (May 1997).

As for Dr. Kleck, readers of his materials may be interested to know that he is a member of the ACLU, Amnesty International USA, and Common Cause. He is not and has never been a member of or contributor to any advocacy group on either side of the gun control debate.

2 According to the National Safety Council, the total number of gun deaths (by accidents, suicides and homicides) account for less than 30,000 deaths per year. See Injury Facts, published yearly by the National Safety Council, Itasca, Illinois.
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I know. For one thing it's illegal and this is a law abiding town. We are not dumb enough to risk a weapons charge when crime in non-existant. We are a town of hunters and gun owners and the only people carrying here are the police.
 
Dirty Harry said:
I know. For one thing it's illegal and this is a law abiding town. We are not dumb enough to risk a weapons charge when crime in non-existant. We are a town of hunters and gun owners and the only people carrying here are the police.
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Do you concede that these facts are true?
 
No concealed carry permit. I am a life member of the NRA, my Dad, who served 3 1/2 years in the Army infantry (2 years frontline combat in Pacific Theater, New Georgia, Bouganville, Phillipines) trained me, starting when I was 6. I have 5 pistols, 4 rifles.

My favorite shooting is .223 varmint rifles at 200 yds. at the range. I handload my ammo, and it is tuned to my rifle and chamber, so it is MUCH more accurate than off the shelf ammo. I shoot a Savage varmint rifle with a 26" heavy barrel, off of a mechanical rest in front with bunny ear sandbag in the back.

Range sessions are timed, 20 min. firing, 10 min. cease fire to check and post targets. A box of ammo is 50 rounds, so I try to fire 25 in 20 min., and clean my rifle in the next 20 min. session, so I spend about 2 hours on a range session to fire one box of 50.

I shoot 5 rounds at each orange 1" dot on a target, so all are 5 shot groups.

At 100 yds., these usually measure about .5", center to center (extreme spread minus the diameter of a bullet). Using center to center, you can compare group sizes of different diameter bullets, as like to like.

At 200 yards, I want to be under 1.5", and I am usually close, except of very windy days. A .223 is a small bullet, and I have seen the wind push a bullet 6" left or right on a very windy day, at 200 yds. The same wind at 100 yds. would only push the same bullet 1.5", so the relationship of drift to wind speed at distance is not linear, rather its exponential.

For off the shelf equipment, that's about as good as it gets. I have seen a few guys do better, but you have to put up wind flags and judge the change in wind speed on every shot and adjust your hold. I have tried, but I'm not too hot at it. Or, I get 4 out of 5 better, misjudge one shot, and the group is just as big as if I didn't try reading the wind; so I don't. Means I won't be a competitive shooter, I'll just have to be a serious hobbiest.

I don't drive much after dark and not in bad areas, so I don't concealed carry. I have thought about it, and given my behavior, the odds of me needing it don't seem to justify the effort and expense. Passing the firing test would be easy for me, I'm already better than 90% of the pistol shooters at the range. I do keep a pistol in a combo locked pistol box, loaded magazine in the gun, no round chambered, so I'd have to cycle the slide to chamber a round.

In Tx. since it became legal to get a concealed carry license, I have never heard of a permit holder going nuts and killing a family member or an innocent bystander. I have heard of many defending themselves, and some who killed people threatening them. All the cases I have heard of go to the grand jury and all have been 'no true billed'. As near as I can tell, concealed carry permit holders carrying loaded guns does not appear to create a new problem for society, I say based on 20 years of observation in Tx.
 
ptif219 said:
So because a small farming community is like that the rest of the country is?
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Not a farming community at all. Mostly service and manufacturing. So I guess it is like the rest of the country.
 
finebead said:
In Tx. since it became legal to get a concealed carry license, I have never heard of a permit holder going nuts and killing a family member or an innocent bystander. I have heard of many defending themselves, and some who killed people threatening them. All the cases I have heard of go to the grand jury and all have been 'no true billed'. As near as I can tell, concealed carry permit holders carrying loaded guns does not appear to create a new problem for society, I say based on 20 years of observation in Tx.
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It did not create any problems when Minnesota passed CCW either. It was a non issue.
 
In H-Town, probably 85% of the people I know pack heat at all times. so If I should need a fire arm, I can borrow one pretty quick.
 
Whenever I see this topic being discussed, I think of this video;

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis"]YouTube- Suzanna Gratia Hupp explains meaning of 2nd Amendment![/ame]

Bad Guys :blastem:
 
Dirty Harry said:
Not a farming community at all. Mostly service and manufacturing. So I guess it is like the rest of the country.
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So you are trying to compare a community of 20000 to city's and urban populations that number in the millions?

That is just flies in the face of any kind of logic.
 
Blackdog said:
So you are trying to compare a community of 20000 to city's and urban populations that number in the millions?

That is just flies in the face of any kind of logic.
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I am not comparing it to anything. Not everyone lives in a big city. I wouldn't.
 
Dirty Harry said:
I am not comparing it to anything. Not everyone lives in a big city. I wouldn't.
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That does not change the fact you said "Not a farming community at all. Mostly service and manufacturing. So I guess it is like the rest of the country." when in fact this is not true at all.

As I said, it flies in the face of any kind of logic.
 
Blackdog said:
That does not change the fact you said "Not a farming community at all. Mostly service and manufacturing. So I guess it is like the rest of the country." when in fact this is not true at all.

As I said, it flies in the face of any kind of logic.
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The rest of the country is not just big cities. My city is just like the rest of the country, only a smaller slice of it. Most cities are service and manufacturing just like my city..
 
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I had a permit for several years, but there is so many restrictions of places your not permitted to enter with a concealed weapon and the only way that you could use a gun to protect yourself would be if there is absolutely no way that you could escape the situation if a person was threatening your life or a loved one. Also, I decided that I have such a short temper that there was a possibility I may use the weapon stupidly. In this state, you can have a gun in your automobile if it is visible when a law enforcement officer approaches your vehicle. I spent some time out West (Utah) where it was permitted for you to carry your handgun in a holster on your belt. There were very few people that took advantage of this privilege. There seem to be less crime there than other places I don't know if it's for that reason.
 
Dirty Harry said:
The rest of the country is not just big cities. My city is just like the rest of the country, only a smaller slice of it. Most cities are service and manufacturing just like my city..
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How many places have you lived? It could not be allot with that kind of a statement. Your small "slice" of city if nothing like Gary Indiana, Santa Rosa California, Lawton Oklahoma or Fort Lauderdale Florida etc.

I have lived all across this country and it is most definitely not the same in each place.

Each location has it's own racial makeup, crime statistics, tax base etc. I am certain your "slice" is nothing like Ford Heights Illinois (poorest city in the nation.) All these things combine to make each city, village or town different in it's own way.

Your statement makes no sense at all.
 
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Blackdog said:
How many places have you lived? It could not be allot with that kind of a statement. Your small "slice" of city if nothing like Gary Indiana, Santa Rosa California, Lawton Oklahoma or Fort Lauderdale Florida etc.

I have lived all across this country and it is most definitely not the same in each place.

Each location has it's own racial makeup, crime statistics, tax base etc. I an certain your "slice" is nothing like Ford Heights Illinois (poorest city in the nation.) All these things combine to make each city, village or town different in it's own way.

Your statement makes no sense at all.
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My city is like most cities because it is not an agriculture town but relies on the service industry and manufacturing. Don't you get it? He stated my town was not like most because it was a farm town. It isn't.
 
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