View Poll Results: Should firearm use and safety be a required subject in school?

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Thread: Should firearm use and safety be a required subject in school?

  1. #111
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    Re: Should firearm use and safety be a required subject in school?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    To present the counterargument, I give you this Geek analysis:
    I'm not sure what this proves...other than there are a lot more people in urban areas than there are in rural areas. In absolute terms, of course there are going to be more guns in urban areas since there are more people. But that's like saying that cars are more dangerous than motorcycles because the total number of car fatalities is higher.

    The PROPORTIONS are the numbers we should be interested in, as they are a reasonable proxy for the likelihood that an individual lives in a home with a gun. Assuming these numbers are accurate, the average person is almost twice as likely to own a gun if they live in a rural area. Therefore mandatory gun safety classes would be of more use in rural areas.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-17-10 at 02:14 AM.
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  2. #112
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    Re: Should firearm use and safety be a required subject in school?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    After gun safety and cpr are in the curriculum, than I'm open to discussing sex-ed in the public school.
    That's an odd stance. The average person is far more likely to use their genitals than they are to use CPR or a gun.

    Why do you place a higher importance of the less frequently used things?
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  3. #113
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    Re: Should firearm use and safety be a required subject in school?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    That's an odd stance. The average person is far more likely to use their genitals than they are to use CPR or a gun.

    Why do you place a higher importance of the less frequently used things?
    Teen pregnancy kills far fewer people than does accidental firearms discharge or the lack of medical attention.

    I might turn the question back on you and ask why you place more importance on the things which kill fewer people

  4. #114
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    Re: Should firearm use and safety be a required subject in school?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If you read his post, you'll see that that isn't his agenda at all. It's to be able to argue more effectively against gun control advocates. I'm highly skeptical of any argument along the lines of "We should implement Policy X so that critics of my agenda will no longer have Argument Y." That's fine if it's merely incidental to some actual benefit from Policy X, but he framed it as the main reason to teach everyone about gun safety.

    In a lot of cities, the gun ownership rate is maybe 5-10% or less. Seems rather silly to make EVERYONE take a class on gun safety when most kids will grow up in homes without guns.
    You're speaking to someone who sends money to folks trying to abolish various gun bans in cities.

    Taking that in context, while fighting for more guns in the cities I also fight for those guns to be used safely.

    My position on the specific topic of gun classes in the school is but a piece of a broader agenda.


    ***
    The statistic you quote, 5-10%, is that legal gun ownership or does that figure include illegal ownership as well? How many children grow up in homes with illegal firearms, or have friends who illegally carry on the street?
    Last edited by Jerry; 01-17-10 at 02:25 PM.

  5. #115
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    Re: Should firearm use and safety be a required subject in school?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Teen pregnancy kills far fewer people than does accidental firearms discharge or the lack of medical attention.

    I might turn the question back on you and ask why you place more importance on the things which kill fewer people
    Are you sure about that? There aren't very many deaths from accidental firearm use. And aren't you anti-abortion? If you consider fetuses to be humans, then the number of deaths from teen pregnancies are several orders of magnitude higher than those from accidental firearm use.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-17-10 at 03:54 PM.
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    Re: Should firearm use and safety be a required subject in school?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Are you sure about that? There aren't very many deaths from accidental firearm use. And aren't you anti-abortion? If you consider fetuses to be humans, then the number of deaths from teen pregnancies are several orders of magnitude higher than those from accidental firearm use.
    First trimester abortions don't count as I don't oppose those

    So does your statistic include illegal firearms or no?

  7. #117
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    Re: Should firearm use and safety be a required subject in school?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I'm not sure what this proves...other than there are a lot more people in urban areas than there are in rural areas. In absolute terms, of course there are going to be more guns in urban areas since there are more people. But that's like saying that cars are more dangerous than motorcycles because the total number of car fatalities is higher.

    The PROPORTIONS are the numbers we should be interested in, as they are a reasonable proxy for the likelihood that an individual lives in a home with a gun. Assuming these numbers are accurate, the average person is almost twice as likely to own a gun if they live in a rural area. Therefore mandatory gun safety classes would be of more use in rural areas.
    Not in actual numbers.


    Anyway, I don't know why I'm arguing about this because I don't really care. After some thought, I've come to the conclusion that I don't want gun safety, mandatory or elective, taught in public schools. The reason being, "public" schools are actually government schools, and they're under the command of the Beltway more than local school boards or parents. Since we're talking about the government doing it, they'd surely screw it up... like they do almost everything else. So, nevermind.

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  8. #118
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    Re: Should firearm use and safety be a required subject in school?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Not in actual numbers.


    Anyway, I don't know why I'm arguing about this because I don't really care. After some thought, I've come to the conclusion that I don't want gun safety, mandatory or elective, taught in public schools. The reason being, "public" schools are actually government schools, and they're under the command of the Beltway more than local school boards or parents. Since we're talking about the government doing it, they'd surely screw it up... like they do almost everything else. So, nevermind.

    G.

    I think you might be right on that.They would probably require someone with a PHD with no firearm experience over someone with real world experience to teach the course.
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  9. #119
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    Re: Should firearm use and safety be a required subject in school?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Teen pregnancy kills far fewer people than does accidental firearms discharge or the lack of medical attention.
    Let's compare accidental firearms discharge to Maternal mortality for a minute.

    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr57/nvsr57_14.pdf

    In 2006 (most recent data I could find), there were 642 accidental firearms deaths, with a rate of 0.2 per 100,000 population

    However, Maternal mortality deaths (death caused by childbirth) were numbered at 569. There were a total of 151,963,545 females in the US in 2006 United States - Age and Sex and that translates to a rate of 0.37 per 100,000.

    Now, I didn't remove the infertile portion of the female population when I calculated that rate. If we remove all female children under 10 and adult women over 65, we remove 27% of the total population of females getting a total at-risk population of 110,933,387. This creates a rate of 0.5 per 100,000 of the at-risk population (although this number is still skewed as.

    Which is approximately 2.5 times higher than the at-risk rates for firearms discharge.

    So one could argue that pregnancy is far more dangerous per at-risk capita than accidental firearms discharge.

    This does not take into account mortality rates for deadly STD's aquired during teenage years.

    In 2006, there were 572 reported cases of HIV infections among children 13-19 http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/survei...lescents_8.pdf

    Compare this to a total of 154 unintentional firearms fatalities for all children under 20 in 2006. http://www.bradycenter.org/xshare/pd...age-intent.pdf

    Couple these data together and it is very clear that teen sex is far more dangerous than unintentional discharges of firearms.



    I might turn the question back on you and ask why you place more importance on the things which kill fewer people
    As you can see from the above, I place more importance on the more dangerous thing.

    Why do you worry about the less dangerous one?



    P.S. I would agree that first aid and CPR training has the highest priority of the three, and it is the only one I feel warrants a mandatory education in schools. So that inclusion is fairly irrelevant to the main point of debate. Also, there are very few people who would have a moral aversion to their children being taught first aid or CPR, whereas the other two are comparable due to the high rates of moral aversion.

    So let's not complicate the matter by bringing up red herrings. Let's focus on the apples to apples comparison.
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  10. #120
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    Re: Should firearm use and safety be a required subject in school?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    I'd rather they forced martial arts on students, though. Heheh.
    You know, that makes much more sense. Am always for more physical conditioning for our out of shape citizens. Majority of our countrymen are obese and unable to defend themselves.

    Firearm use and safety shouldn't be a required subject. We are having enough problem just teaching the basics to our population.

    I wish the NRA would get out of politics and become more prevalent with their youth shooting programs. My own son went through a NRA shooting program early in high school and it was ran very well. Would hope the gun manufacturers would contribute to that fine program as it is preparing future customers for them.

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