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Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

  • yes,-- everybody should be treated equal

    Votes: 69 74.2%
  • No--some people should recieve preferential treatment

    Votes: 24 25.8%

  • Total voters
    93
So would that mean morality is unnatural?

Not necessarily. I think that morality is a byproduct of being a social creature of high intellect. That it is a naturally occurring phenomenon base don social patterns designed to aid a species with few natural defenses in survival.

The inclination towards defining morality is natural, but the actual morality that gets defined is a human construct.
 
I have never heard of such a thing. A find like that would throw the scientific world on it's ear.

Just because you haven't heard of it or recognized it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It happens all the time, daily. It hasn't thrown the scientific world on its ear.
 
I have never heard of such a thing. A find like that would throw the scientific world on it's ear.

I would call something like this compassion:

dog_kitten.jpg
 
Just because you haven't heard of it or recognized it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It happens all the time, daily. It hasn't thrown the scientific world on its ear.

Well if it happens on a daily bases, you can show a little evidence of animals being moral? Or understanding abstract concepts without being trained by humans?
 
I would call something like this compassion:

dog_kitten.jpg

I would call that a household pet with a kitten running around. It has nothing to do with compassion or moral values.
 
I have never heard of such a thing. A find like that would throw the scientific world on it's ear.
Here's one dated 2006:
A study demonstrates that elephants show caring behaviour towards other elephants in distress and that they have a strong interest in the dead bodies of other elephants. Furthermore, this behaviour is not restricted to immediate kin, which leads researchers to believe elephants may, like humans, show the emotion of compassion.

[....]

The research team describe how a dying elephant matriarch, they called Eleanor, was assisted by the unrelated matriarch of another family. Over the next week they also tracked other elephants that visited the dying and then dead matriarch and recorded the caring behaviour that they showed. Such behaviour is rare and difficult to observe in nature. Techniques of remote sensing in this case made it possible to collect continuous data on the death of Eleanor, and the reactions of three tagged animals, which could be tracked at the same time.

From radio tracking and direct or recorded observations, this study shows that five families visited the dead Eleanor, showing a distinct interest in her body, One of these families was her own, but the researchers noted that Eleanor also received visits from elephants that were not normally associated with her, nor were they closely related. The study concludes that elephants are interested in the sick, dying or dead elephants, irrespective of a genetic relationship.

The authors said: ‘It leads to the conclusion that elephants have a generalised response to suffering and death of con-specifics and that this is not restricted to kin. It is an example of how elephants and humans may share emotions, such as compassion, and have an awareness and interest about death.’
News: Elephants, like humans, show compassion after a death of their own species
 
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Well if it happens on a daily bases, you can show a little evidence of animals being moral? Or understanding abstract concepts without being trained by humans?

Evidence of other animals showing compassion? Jesus, do a search. You'll find countless examples of animals - both wild and domesticated - saving human life, saving the lives of companions, etc. Haven't you ever had a pet? When I'm upset, my pets have always been able to recognize it and try and comfort me. My parent's dog has not been trained to protect my new little dog, but yet when a larger dog came into the yard, he ran out and placed himself immediately in front of the smaller dog and defended him. My cat has done the same with a kitten we brought into the home. Dolphins rescue humans in the wild, elephants rescue their own in the wild, chimps express sadness at the death of one of their own. The list of examples would be nearly endless.
 
This has nothing to do with morals. It has even less to do with animals understanding abstract concepts.

No one said animals cannot feel emotions. Higher level animals most certainly do.
It has everything to do with morals, and as a Christian you should know that. Love is the central moral tenet of Christianity.
 
This has nothing to do with morals. It has even less to do with animals understanding abstract concepts.

No one said animals cannot feel emotions. Higher level animals most certainly do.

Chimpanzees in the wild has been witnessed using tools.
 
Evidence of other animals showing compassion? Jesus, do a search. You'll find countless examples of animals - both wild and domesticated - saving human life, saving the lives of companions, etc. Haven't you ever had a pet? When I'm upset, my pets have always been able to recognize it and try and comfort me. My parent's dog has not been trained to protect my new little dog, but yet when a larger dog came into the yard, he ran out and placed himself immediately in front of the smaller dog and defended him. My cat has done the same with a kitten we brought into the home. Dolphins rescue humans in the wild, elephants rescue their own in the wild, chimps express sadness at the death of one of their own. The list of examples would be nearly endless.

This has nothing to do with compassion or emotion. As I said higher level animals do have emotions. We are talking about morals and abstract thought.

Dogs instinctively protect the members of it's pack. This is simply an extension of that instinct.

It does not show a moral judgement anymore than an animal being sad at the death of a pack member etc.
 
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It has everything to do with morals, and as a Christian you should know that. Love is the central moral tenet of Christianity.

Please get a clue. :roll:
 
Certain tool usages could be viewed as requiring abstract thought. I'm not sure if it relates to morality, though.

Certain birds also use a stick to get insects. This is not proof of abstract thought.

As soon as an animal can understand art, or understand a joke, we will be getting someplace.
 
Certain tool usages could be viewed as requiring abstract thought. I'm not sure if it relates to morality, though.

I was going with blackdogs argument on that. From my take he was arguing that for there to be morality there has to be abstract thought.

Blackdog you can correct me if I misinterpreted you.
 
Certain birds also use a stick to get insects. This is not proof of abstract thought.

As soon as an animal can understand art, or understand a joke, we will be getting someplace.

Actually, some birds are believed to have a similar level of intelligence to primates and both groups have been able to solve logic puzzles.

Logic is itself a version of abstract thought, and a precursor to moral development.
 
Actually, some birds are believed to have a similar level of intelligence to primates and both groups have been able to solve logic puzzles.

Logic is itself a version of abstract thought, and a precursor to moral development.

I see this all pretty much as "anthropomorphism" we teach the animals to solve the puzzles etc. In the wild they are not developing anything close.

Their is much debate among scientists on this subject though.
 
I was going with blackdogs argument on that. From my take he was arguing that for there to be morality there has to be abstract thought.

Blackdog you can correct me if I misinterpreted you.

Actually you just went over my head, lol. I agree with your statement, but I was just saying animals are not moral and do not have the ability to understand basic abstract concepts like humor.
 
I see this all pretty much as "anthropomorphism" we teach the animals to solve the puzzles etc. In the wild they are not developing anything close.

Their is much debate among scientists on this subject though.

Actually, the studies I was thinking about regarding birds were carried out with wild Kea.
 
This has nothing to do with compassion or emotion.

Yes, it does since your reply to a statement regarding other animals and compassion was "that kind of discovery would turn the scientific world on its ear".

Compassion requires empathy. Empathy requires acknowledgment of feelings outside of one's own and how one's actions can affect others. That requires higher thinking.
 
Absolutely. If it's not some serious threat to the world, why forbid it?
 
Yes I did.

Learn anything from the article?

So the eating is apples and oranges but the killing is not?

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, is it?

I probably know more about anthropology, then you will ever know. Considering of course I majored in it in college

Well, you're certainly not showing it here. :(
 
Yes, it does since your reply to a statement regarding other animals and compassion was "that kind of discovery would turn the scientific world on its ear".

That is true, I did not mean it that way in the context of the conversation.

Compassion requires empathy. Empathy requires acknowledgment of feelings outside of one's own and how one's actions can affect others. That requires higher thinking.

Higher thinking is not a sign of morals or abstract thought. It is simply higher thinking. This does not make an animal a moral animal. Nor does it mean it can understand anything outside of basic emotional contexts.
 
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