View Poll Results: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

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  • yes,-- everybody should be treated equal

    95 40.95%
  • No--some people should recieve preferential treatment

    137 59.05%
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Thread: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

  1. #561
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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    This happens often, I find. Someone with a very specific sort of reading of the Bible defends it by saying:

    1. It's too complicated to discuss.
    2. You don't know anything.
    3. You're attacking Christianity.

    These are all defensive obfuscations that lead to no learning for anyone.

    BTW, no one said, Blackdog, that you don't know something. For example, back those many posts ago I asked some questions you still haven't answered. I suggested some linguistic explanations that put your view of the Bible into question. Rather than defend your views, you attacked me as ignorant.

    It's a weak set of ideas that doesn't merit a defense. It's a weak debater who runs away when challenged. Unfortunately, for many people, scriptures are the one text we can think with (i.e., we draw conclusions about other things based on them) but mustn't think about (i.e., we must not investigate them beyond the dogma we've been taught).

    Personally, I think we have to investigate the Bible as we would any other text. That doesn't mean relegating it to the status of a fairy tale, but it does mean engaging with a variety of interpretations with a tendency to challenge them all. We do that with every other idea and every other text--why not with this one? Why is it necessary to run away and hide in the warm, easy comfort of what you already "know?"

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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    We do that with every other idea and every other text--why not with this one? Why is it necessary to run away and hide in the warm, easy comfort of what you already "know?"
    'Cause questioning the Bible is un-Amurrican!

    I have no problem with level headed Christians, its just the Bible huggers who annoyingly ram their ideologies down your throat every day. These people have built themselves a nice and safe hut on top of the hill which prevents them from being criticized. This is usually justified with a "oh but you don't understand" or "it takes hours to explain" blah blah blah.


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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    This happens often, I find. Someone with a very specific sort of reading of the Bible defends it by saying:

    1. It's too complicated to discuss.
    2. You don't know anything.
    3. You're attacking Christianity.
    Because they are true. It is to complicated when taken out of context and then try to explain it to someone that wants to do nothing more than prove it wrong.

    Why would I want to waist my time? Or anyone for that matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    These are all defensive obfuscations that lead to no learning for anyone.
    If you feel that way it is fine.

    I can tell you it has more to do with being feed up with the same questions over and over again. That could easily be answered by opening up the Bible and reading it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    BTW, no one said, Blackdog, that you don't know something. For example, back those many posts ago I asked some questions you still haven't answered. I suggested some linguistic explanations that put your view of the Bible into question. Rather than defend your views, you attacked me as ignorant.
    I did not attack you or say you are ignorant, that is a lie. I did however bring into question your biblical knowledge which you have shown to be limited.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    It's a weak set of ideas that doesn't merit a defense. It's a weak debater who runs away when challenged. Unfortunately, for many people, scriptures are the one text we can think with (i.e., we draw conclusions about other things based on them) but mustn't think about (i.e., we must not investigate them beyond the dogma we've been taught).
    What is weak is debating what? 6 different people at the same time who have no clue asking different questions that have already been answered no less. This over and over again when nothing I say can or will affect the preconceived notions they already have. So again why should I bother?

    I already told you if you want to continue we can go to the proper forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    Personally, I think we have to investigate the Bible as we would any other text.
    Don't you think this has already been done? By better men than you or I.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    That doesn't mean relegating it to the status of a fairy tale, but it does mean engaging with a variety of interpretations with a tendency to challenge them all.
    I take it on faith, so I don't really feel the need to challenge it. If you do then actually crack it open and read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    We do that with every other idea and every other text--why not with this one? Why is it necessary to run away and hide in the warm, easy comfort of what you already "know?"
    Because I would be having the same debate every week with another "I saw this on the Internet" person.

    It is getting old, and is pointless. If you really wanted to examine or learn, you would not be asking me on a Internet message board for debating politics now would you?

    So again I bid you a good day.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 01-20-10 at 02:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  4. #564
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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    It is a matter of equal rights. Science has shown that sexual orientation is a matter of brain and spinal chord structure. It is not a choice.

    Americans really need to get over their homophobia. They are regular people who are slightly different from you, like racial differences.

    Fankly homophobia, in my book, is indistinguishable from bigotry.

    I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -Stephen Roberts

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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Gerstle View Post
    It is a matter of equal rights. Science has shown that sexual orientation is a matter of brain and spinal chord structure. It is not a choice.
    Even if it were a choice, people have a right to choose things. Religion, for instance.

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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Blackdog, what you are essentially doing here is saying, "You all don't know enough to comment but it's too complicated to explain, so you just have to shut up and take my word for it!" Well I'm sorry but that just isn't good enough. You cited your interpretation the bible as the source of your opposition to gay marriage. It is not unreasonable, therefore, for people to challenge that source--not the bible itself, but your interpretation of it--and expect you to expend a little effort in explaining yourself.

    Here's an idea: try to concentrate on just one thing. Forget about all the comparative stuff--as I already know why most former OT forbiddances are now deemed acceptable--just tell me why Paul's comments on homosexuality, in the context of when they were written and who they were written to, are deemed immutable. I mean, surely it will be worth that extra bit of effort if it wins you the argument?
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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Antagony View Post
    Blackdog, what you are essentially doing here is saying, "You all don't know enough to comment but it's too complicated to explain, so you just have to shut up and take my word for it!" Well I'm sorry but that just isn't good enough.
    Actually it is good enough. I don't care if you understand my reasoning or not. So I don't feel the need to explain myself.

    All you need to know is...

    #1 I do not support Gay marraige.
    #2 My religion is part of the reason.
    #3 Your opinion of my religion is irrelevant to this matter.

    I can't make it any more simple than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antagony View Post
    You cited your interpretation the bible as the source of your opposition to gay marriage. It is not unreasonable, therefore, for people to challenge that source--not the bible itself, but your interpretation of it--and expect you to expend a little effort in explaining yourself.
    It becomes unreasonable when I have already explained why. If people don't want to respect that it is OK. In the end I don't need to explain how or why my religion says this. The Bible is available to anyone who would like to read it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antagony View Post
    Here's an idea: try to concentrate on just one thing. Forget about all the comparative stuff--as I already know why most former OT forbiddances are now deemed acceptable--just tell me why Paul's comments on homosexuality, in the context of when they were written and who they were written to, are deemed immutable. I mean, surely it will be worth that extra bit of effort if it wins you the argument?
    Is that what this is about to you? Who wins an argument?

    Well You win! Yea we are done here, lol.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 01-20-10 at 03:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Well, one could say that he may have spoken directly to Jesus' ghost, but during the time of Jesus' actual ministry, Paul never even met him.
    Jesus is God, he is not a ghost. So Paul spoke to Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    His gospels supposedly came from "revelation" by Jesus Christ. I don't know if that means he felt they came by direct conversation with the ghost of Jesus or if he thought Jesus put the gospels into his head through some divine means.
    Again Jesus is not a ghost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Either way, it's a little disingenuous to say he spoke directly to Jesus. All one can honestly say is that Paul claimed to have been in direct contact with Jesus, but it is known that he never met Jesus while Jesus was alive.
    What is disingenuous is to state matter of faculty that he was a "ghost" when this is absolutely not true according to Scripture.

    No one said Moses met God in physical form, and yet people say Moses spoke directly to God with no inference of ghosts.

    You are making this about semantics and wholly unrelated to my post or point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    To me, that fact means that if something is only found in Paul's gospels, but not the other gospels one should probably view those gospels with a certain "This dude believed that the voices in his head were Jesus" type of skepticism. Doesn't mean the voices weren't Jesus, but I think a skeptical view of those gospels may be well placed.

    Just sayin'.
    It is not a fact. If this was the case, anyone who spoke to Jesus or God or claimed it, would have been held to the same scrutiny.

    Just sayin'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #569
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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Because they are true. It is to complicated when taken out of context and then try to explain it to someone that wants to do nothing more than prove it wrong.

    Why would I want to waist my time? Or anyone for that matter?
    The problem with this argument is that it applies equally to every other problem/situation/disagreement one might have on an internet forum. It's an argument against participating in these discussions at all.



    If you feel that way it is fine.

    I can tell you it has more to do with being feed up with the same questions over and over again. That could easily be answered by opening up the Bible and reading it.
    You get the same questions when you haven't provided answers. And the simple fact is that if you work this hard to avoid articulating your position, you probably don't understand it that well yourself.
    I did not attack you or say you are ignorant, that is a lie. I did however bring into question your biblical knowledge which you have shown to be limited.
    Calling me ignorant of the Bible is still calling me ignorant. I don't mind it really--I DO mind using that tactic as a way to avoid seeing your ideas challenged.
    What is weak is debating what? 6 different people at the same time who have no clue asking different questions that have already been answered no less. This over and over again when nothing I say can or will affect the preconceived notions they already have. So again why should I bother?
    Hard as it is for you to understand this, the rest of us feel the same way about you. And yet, we labor in this vineyard.
    Don't you think this has already been done? By better men than you or I.



    I take it on faith, so I don't really feel the need to challenge it. If you do then actually crack it open and read.
    Then you are putting your faith in the men whom you've trusted to interpret, not in the text itself.
    So again I bid you a good day.
    You say that a lot, but I don't think you can let someone else get the last word on this, can you?
    Last edited by Rassales; 01-20-10 at 03:21 PM.

  10. #570
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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Gerstle View Post
    It is a matter of equal rights. Science has shown that sexual orientation is a matter of brain and spinal chord structure. It is not a choice.

    Americans really need to get over their homophobia. They are regular people who are slightly different from you, like racial differences.

    Fankly homophobia, in my book, is indistinguishable from bigotry.
    I agree, but then people do have a right to like, or dislike what ever they choose.
    "Don't be particular bout nothin, but the company you keep"

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