View Poll Results: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

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  • yes,-- everybody should be treated equal

    95 40.95%
  • No--some people should recieve preferential treatment

    137 59.05%
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Thread: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

  1. #501
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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    What does any of this have to do with Gay marraige? I mean if you want to continue this, we should move it to the "Church and State" forum.
    I suppose. My point is this--at moments of great change, there are always people afraid of the next step, but after a time their descendants come to see those changes as right and good, even inevitable. This sort of watershed happens repeatedly throughout history--and terms like "moral decay" are just fear of change. Seems like the decay is constant--is there ever a time when we have "moral build-up" or have we just been falling apart constantly since some ideal moment no one actually remembers?

    If we want to talk about problems of morality, consensual sex is among the least important aspect of life, IMHO.

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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    I suppose. My point is this--at moments of great change, there are always people afraid of the next step, but after a time their descendants come to see those changes as right and good, even inevitable. This sort of watershed happens repeatedly throughout history--and terms like "moral decay" are just fear of change. Seems like the decay is constant--is there ever a time when we have "moral build-up" or have we just been falling apart constantly since some ideal moment no one actually remembers?
    Why is it with people like you and ADK etc anyone who does not agree with your view it's they must be afraid of something, Homophobic, or hate gay people?

    In actuality it has nothing to do with being afraid etc and everything to do with standing up for what you believe to be right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    If we want to talk about problems of morality, consensual sex is among the least important aspect of life, IMHO.
    OK.
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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I do care insomuch as I support Civil Unions, with all the rights of heterosexual marraige. I cannot and will not accept two men as a marraige.

    Marraige is a religious institution to me. It would no longer be that if other than 1 man and 1 women were to make a marraige.
    Ah, so you don't care about the constitution.

    That works at least.

    If its a religious institution, then it has no business in government and as law. If its not a religious institution, not changing the definition and creating a "seperate but equal" terminology is ridiculous.

    So what you're suggesting is it is religious, and to hell with the seperation of church and state and the equal protection clause, who cares about the constitution, we can't let gays have that term cause its holy to me.

    I will say at least you flat out admit the reason you don't want to change it, instead of dance and skirt around it like others who know they'll look somewhat foolish or at the very least uncarrying about the constitution if they do so. The reason above is the exact reason why I think marriage as a term should be 100% stricken from law and replaced with "civil union", leaving marriage completely as a religious thing and be done with it.

    However, I do hope I don't see you in a 2nd amendment thread at some point talking about how important and untouchable the constitution is and that the 2nd amendment should never be infringed upon in the very least...because cherry picking the constitution is as wrong as mangling it.

  4. #504
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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    As I stated I was just going by the small blurb you linked to. It says nothing about any of that.



    I agree with this.



    He wanted a theocracy as I said, or at least that what it sounds like.

    I do not want nor does the Bible condone a theocracy of any type. The laws in the Bible are for our personal lives, not a governmental system to run a country. That being said, it does not mean our mortality cannot be reflected in our society or government.



    Creating beauty in and of itself and taking credit is not vain. Bragging about it would turn it into vanity.
    I don't think that his version of theocracy is quite the same as what we typically consider a theocracy:

    CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Girolamo Savonarola

    The French king, whom Savonarola at the head of an embassy of Florentines had visited at Pisa, now entered the city. After the king's departure a new and peculiar constitution, a kind of theocratic democracy, was established at Florence, based on the political and social doctrines the Dominican monk had proclaimed. Christ was considered the King of Florence and protector of its liberties. A great council, as the representative of all the citizens, became the governing body of the republic and the law of Christ was to be the basis of political and social life. Savonarola did not interfere directly in politics and affairs of State, but his teachings and his ideas were authoritative.
    Many people form the religious-right argue that this is the same thing that is stated in the Declaration of independence.
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  5. #505
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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    You don't have to do all that, but it does get boring repeating the same things over and over.
    I hear ya on that. You don't want to know how many times I've said the things I'm saying to you. I honestly don't know why I try anymore. I just have this drive inside me for some reason to protect the innocent.

    I know that every normal person has that to some degree, but for me, it's ridiculous how much I just want innocent people to be able to be happy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I ment the state, not the country. There are states that have legal gay marriages.
    Hm, then it might be best for me and my Christian family to pack up and move somewhere that's tolerant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    In the country I live in I have the same right to follow my moral compass as anyone else. If gay marrage became Federal law tomorrow, I would not really care, but if it was put to a vote, I would vote against it.
    In my opinion, that mentality is very...horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    As I have explained time and time again to others with closed ears. I have no fear or hatred of anyone who is gay. In fact I love them as much as anyone else, but I will not support the sin.
    I don't understand how it's a sin if they're not really even doing anything wrong. Why can't you just leave people alone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No. I don't feel bad about it at all.
    Wow...I don't know what to say to that...
    Well, I do. But I won't.
    Just...wow. That's awful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I assume that he would considering he torched entire city's including women and children for being disobedient. Lets also not forget his cursing people for many generations after. He is a loving God, but also demands his children be obedient.
    The wages of sin is death.
    I'm not sure if I believe all that. Where is it all now? He's not doing anything. Things must have been much worse back then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No, not one bit. I know this sounds bad but I and my wife have had, and do have many gay friends. I don't really care if they are gay. I treat them with respect and in return they do the same. They also know I do not condone the gay relationships they are in. I do not rub it in the faces of my Friends, but I also do not encourage it.
    So I love the sinner and hate the sin. As I am commanded to do.
    Yeah, that is bad. Why are they friends with someone who thinks the way you do? I don't understand it.

    A lot of the people that I argue with about this claim to have gay friends. I don't know whether to believe them or not. I have a gay best friend, and I know that if I thought the way you did, he'd have been out of my life from the moment he came out to me.

    If you have ever had anyone come out to you, you'd know there's no choice involved and there's nothing sinful about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I was rolling my eyes at the fact that you and many others constantly attack the example rather then the point. The point was about sin, and the fact I believe in no levels of sin. Sin is sin, whether it be a murderer, thief, liar or a homosexual relationship.
    Well, it's a bad example to use because it completely destroys any point you attempt to make.

    Homosexuality doesn't fit in to the category of sin to me. To my ears, it sounds like, "whether it be an apple, orange, banana...or asparagus."

    You can't not believe in sin. Sin is everywhere. Everyone sins. You sin, I sin, gay people sin. But the fact that homosexuals are homosexuals is not one of those sins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Yes. As I said I don't care that much about the issue. I think it is wrong to allow it, so why would I care?
    You really just don't care that something you believe in is impeding on the lives of others?
    I'm sorry for being repetitive, but it's just so unbelievable to me. I know that people can be cold, but it's tough to swallow when you're directly faced with it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I do care insomuch as I support Civil Unions, with all the rights of heterosexual marraige. I cannot and will not accept two men as a marraige.
    Marraige is a religious institution to me. It would no longer be that if other than 1 man and 1 women were to make a marraige.
    I don't believe that having a separate title for gay people would be considered equal. Not just because of the name, it's just that "separate but equal" is usually not equal at all.
    We can just call religious marriages...uhm..."Religious Marriages." We can call anything else just an ordinary or non-religious marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    They are not a different type of human, they are simply humans. They are sinners like the rest of us. We are all born into it. I will not legitimize sin.
    Everyone's different. Maybe I should have said different type of person. That's what they are. Just different. Not any worse or better than anyone else.
    Wait, born into it? I'm just curious and this is completely unrelated, but do you believe that babies are sinners until they're baptized?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    That is fine, but that does not change or influence my decision not to support it.
    I am one voice in a sea of many, they have as much say in government as I do.
    So, you, like many other Christians, are just believing what you do based on fear. I don't believe that's what God wants. I think he just wants everyone to be as good of a person as they can. Just be good to other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    We have s system of laws in place. If the people want it, it can happen. If they do not, it will not.
    I am one voice in a sea of many, they have as much say in government as I do.
    I know that everyone has an equal say in government.
    I really just wish there was separation of church and state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I have lots of gay friends, they seem to be having a great time down here in Florida. It does not look like they are suffering to me.
    In fact a majority of them don't even care about the marraige issue. Much like myself. Hmmm... Birds of a feather.
    Again, not so sure if I believe that you have any gay friends. I just can't imagine it.

    It'd be like you being friends with someone who didn't agree with your "choice" to be whatever race you are and personally didn't believe you should have the right to vote or be married. But they still loved you as a person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    That would depend on what they are pursuing to make themselves happy. Lets say a member of NAMBLA was seeking their form of happiness, would you still say yes? It is again an example.
    I am not in any way comparing gays to child molesters.
    I should not even have to say that.
    If their form of happiness was harming a child, then of course not. In fact, I'd want them dead.

    I'm okay with anything that doesn't harm anyone or infringe on anyone else's rights.

    Homosexuality doesn't harm anyone or infringe on anyone else's rights. That's why I'm alright with that and do not see why this is even an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Alright, really? Must you keep putting the "roll eyes" smiley here? It's not cool when I'm trying to have a serious conversation with you.

    It's completely true, what I said. You, and anyone else can get married and do whatever the hell they want as long as they're heterosexual.

    Everyone is basically being forced into Christianity.
    It's not right or fair.
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  6. #506
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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    I suppose. My point is this--at moments of great change, there are always people afraid of the next step, but after a time their descendants come to see those changes as right and good, even inevitable. This sort of watershed happens repeatedly throughout history--and terms like "moral decay" are just fear of change.
    Yep. For instance, interracial marriage was "moral decay" once.

  7. #507
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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by MsCommonSensiality View Post
    Everyone is basically being forced into Christianity.
    It's not right or fair.
    No, its really not. Are you being forced to worship Jesus Christ as your lord? To attend church on Sundays? To read the bible?

    Not to mention its hardly just Christianity that views marriage between a man and a woman.

    Is Murder being illegal forcing people into Christianity? Theivery? Is having legal punishment for adultery through divorce forcing Christianity onto people because you’re coveting they neighbor? No, because those notions existed before and outside of Christianity? Well so has the notion of man and wife.

    People voting based on their morals and views does not mean we don’t have separation of church and state as you incorrectly try to imply. Nothing in our constitution forbids people to VOTE based on their personal beliefs be they religious, spiritual, scientific, or philosophical. Indeed, some of our earliest founders were inspired by morals, ethics, and philosophies of various religions.

    The constitution prohibits the government from enacting laws forcing a specific religion, and this does not do it.

    It’s also why the notion that “marriage” as its used in the government is a religious term and thus sacred and shouldn’t be changed ridiculous. Devil Worshipers can get married. Athiests can be married. People with no desire to procreate can get married. People who plan on swinging and screwing lots of other people can be married. Marriages can be ended in almost no time. None of it is requiring that the person be religious, let alone Christianity. Marriage, as it is under the government, isn’t and cannot be a religious thing and trying to argue that it shouldn’t be changed because it’s a religious thing is either ignorant of the constitution or willfully not giving a damn about the constitution. Not to mention it is a rather hypocritical stance since a HUGE plethora of sinners, including ones that actually fall on the Ten Commandments (which homosexuality doesn’t), have absolutely ZERO issue being married under the government.

    Voting based on ones religious views is not a separation of church and state issue and I would dread the day we take away the freedom of people to vote based on their beliefs and views. Why then are you apparently so intolerant that you wish to forbid people from voting based on what they believe in. Why are you so intolerant to religion that you would allow philosophies to factor into why people vote, ethics to factor into why people vote, morals factor into why people vote, history factor into why people vote, but if any of those are influenced by religion you feel they shouldn’t because its not a separation of church and state. For all your talk of intolerance, you seem to have some intolerance towards religious people.

  8. #508
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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Why is it with people like you and ADK etc anyone who does not agree with your view it's they must be afraid of something, Homophobic, or hate gay people?
    Well... be cause... you're wrong. You're wrong to think it's ok to treat one group of people one way and another another way... no matter what your reasons, excuses or religious biases. This is a perfect example why there is a separation of church and state.

    You really need to get a dictionary and look up bigot and discrimination. And really understanding Christ's teachings might help you to see the light also.

    In actuality it has nothing to do with being afraid etc and everything to do with standing up for what you believe to be right.
    It is all about fear and ignorance that comes from blindly following a book that has been mis-interpreted for thousands of years. At some point common sense must take over.
    Last edited by ADK_Forever; 01-20-10 at 10:11 AM.
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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Ugh, are you kidding me? Someone else who wants to tell me I suck when all I want is for everyone be equal? Awesome. Here we go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    No, its really not. Are you being forced to worship Jesus Christ as your lord? To attend church on Sundays? To read the bible?
    Homosexuals are being forced to abide by Christian rules. That's my point. And it isn't fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Not to mention its hardly just Christianity that views marriage between a man and a woman.
    Look, I'm not really into the whole religious scene. I don't know about anything else other than Christianity, really. Even that, I don't know much about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Is Murder being illegal forcing people into Christianity? Theivery? Is having legal punishment for adultery through divorce forcing Christianity onto people because you’re coveting they neighbor? No, because those notions existed before and outside of Christianity? Well so has the notion of man and wife.
    Okay, for the umpteenth time, homosexuality does not harm anyone or infringe on the rights of others.
    Murder does.
    Thievery does.
    Adultery does.
    Is that not correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    People voting based on their morals and views does not mean we don’t have separation of church and state as you incorrectly try to imply. Nothing in our constitution forbids people to VOTE based on their personal beliefs be they religious, spiritual, scientific, or philosophical. Indeed, some of our earliest founders were inspired by morals, ethics, and philosophies of various religions.
    I don't believe we have separation of church and state. Gay people would be able to marry if we did. Without religion, there would be no argument against it other than bigotry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The constitution prohibits the government from enacting laws forcing a specific religion, and this does not do it.
    It’s also why the notion that “marriage” as its used in the government is a religious term and thus sacred and shouldn’t be changed ridiculous.
    Yeah, religious term. Wait, what do you mean, "shouldn't be changed ridiculous?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Devil Worshipers can get married. Athiests can be married. People with no desire to procreate can get married. People who plan on swinging and screwing lots of other people can be married. Marriages can be ended in almost no time.
    And you don't believe anything like that is "destroying this country's moral fabric?"
    My whole point is that, yeah, as you said, all those types of people can get married, but if the two people both have a penis or vagina then it's a no-go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    None of it is requiring that the person be religious, let alone Christianity. Marriage, as it is under the government, isn’t and cannot be a religious thing and trying to argue that it shouldn’t be changed because it’s a religious thing is either ignorant of the constitution or willfully not giving a damn about the constitution.
    Wait, are you thinking that I'm saying something I'm not? I want marriage to be changed to include homosexuals.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Not to mention it is a rather hypocritical stance since a HUGE plethora of sinners, including ones that actually fall on the Ten Commandments (which homosexuality doesn’t), have absolutely ZERO issue being married under the government.
    Yeah...I don't believe homosexuality is a sin. Why are you telling me this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Voting based on ones religious views is not a separation of church and state issue and I would dread the day we take away the freedom of people to vote based on their beliefs and views.
    If their beliefs and views impede on the lives of other innocent people, then I would not like them to vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Why then are you apparently so intolerant that you wish to forbid people from voting based on what they believe in. Why are you so intolerant to religion that you would allow philosophies to factor into why people vote, ethics to factor into why people vote, morals factor into why people vote, history factor into why people vote, but if any of those are influenced by religion you feel they shouldn’t because its not a separation of church and state. For all your talk of intolerance, you seem to have some intolerance towards religious people.
    I'm not intolerant of religious people, I'm intolerant of people who are intolerant. People who think their way is the only way. If someone believes that blondes are tearing apart the moral fiber of society, they can believe that way, but they shouldn't try to stop blondes from being happy or doing what they want with their lives as long as they're not hurting anyone.
    That's how stupid it all sounds to me.
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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Why is it with people like you and ADK etc anyone who does not agree with your view it's they must be afraid of something, Homophobic, or hate gay people?

    In actuality it has nothing to do with being afraid etc and everything to do with standing up for what you believe to be right.
    Well that's what you say, but the evidence says otherwise. It is the vigour with which religious people oppose gay rights that indicates there is something different about it. Rassales touched on this earlier in the thread: OT scripture is chock full of rules of behaviour, but the vast majority of them are ignored these days. There are no movements, as far as I know, to have shellfish consumption outlawed, but scripture says it is an abomination. It is also against scripture to defile one's body with tattoos or piercings {see Leviticus 19:28--which is the very next chapter after the one that anti-gay Christians usually cite as God's will on homosexuality} and yet I don't know any devout Christian woman who doesn't have pierced ears--I'm not saying there aren't any, I just don't know them. And even if most Christians obeyed these laws--which they don't--they certainly don't obey the laws directing them to stone their children to death for disobedience. No, the way that scripture pertaining to homosexuality is immutable, when almost everything else can be transmuted into meanings which no longer apply as they were only applicable in the context of the time when the bible was written... well hypocrisy is too small a word for it. 'Homophobia' seems far more appropriate.
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