View Poll Results: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

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  • yes,-- everybody should be treated equal

    95 40.95%
  • No--some people should recieve preferential treatment

    137 59.05%
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Thread: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

  1. #91
    Advisor Rassales's Avatar
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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Actually, considering the court case now going on in California and the arguments made there, the poll is an accurate reflection of the anti-SSM argument. In the California case, defendant's counsel is arguing that marriage is primarily about procreation--it's a means of giving legal protections and incentives to couples who can have children. That means giving heterosexuals an advantage over homosexuals because society benefits from their producing children and rearing them within intact families.

    We want people to give to charity, so we give them legal advantages through tax breaks.

    We want people to own their homes, so we give homeowners legal advantages through tax breaks.

    We want people to have children and rear them with intact, two parent families, so we give them legal advantages via marriage.

    This is the justification being used, right now, to defend Prop. 8 in California.

    The poll reflects the actual arguments being made in court at this moment. Don't be afraid to own up to the perspective you're defending.

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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    But we'll forgive you're pathetic attempt.

    Marriage, at its core, is "bigoted" in the way you're ignorantly using the word in your (poor) attempt to be a smart ass. You're allowing people that are in a couple (or in your case Jerry a polygamist relationship) a bonus over single people. So, in and of itself, marriage as it is under the government already establishes that discrimination based on the amount of people is allowed. Mind you, this is not descrimination based on sex, ethnicity, color, etc but one simply based on number which would be arguable in and of itself as a potential "civil right".
    Yeah, free religious expression is so dumb...like that 4 y/o in Texas boy who was suspended for having long hair...he should just cut it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Now, the reason benefits that are given to marriage aren't given to single people is that tthere's no government interest in simplifying things both for them, and the couple, in giving the breaks to an individual. Similarly, its not in the governments interest to give it to more than 2 people because it overly complicates the law and makes MORE work, not less, for the government and costs MORE money to deal with, not less. This, again, is not the case with a homosexual couple as the interest in simplifying is as present there as it is with a heterosexual couple.
    I've never seen the government have a problem with over-complicated laws before...take the tax code or Obama'care, for example.

    The government's interest in marriage is the raising of children.

    No children, no government interest, no rational reason to put the government in your bedroom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So, given that "number of people" is not a civil rights issue....
    ....free religious expression not FTW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    What about your defense for you stance? Going to actually say it, or just going to make sarcastic comments again and show your true worth to this thread?
    That kinda sounded like a personal attack
    Last edited by Jerry; 01-14-10 at 04:02 PM.

  3. #93
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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    No, I was just matching mindless one liners that add nothing to the discussion with a parody in kind.

    Still waiting on an actual REASON you believe marriage under the law should not have its definition changed and instead we need to create an entirely new law doing the exact same thing but with a different name.
    The current definition of marriage has been in place for over a thousand years in one form or another. I'm still waiting for a good reason to apply that definition to gay couples... the question isn't "why shouldn't the definition change", the question is "for what purpose is a long standing word being redefined?". Marriage under the law is already defined - that's REASON enough. Referendums in States which want to apply gay marriages to that same definition have largely rejected the use of "marriage" but rather another term.

    What benefit does changing the definition make to non gay people? Answer - none. So until a majority of this country is gay, I would say the traditional definition will stay intact for the most part. California, Massachusetts, NY and NJ possibly are the exception because they're filled with loons to begin with.

    Why is accepting the word "marriage" as only between a man/woman so alien? Up until about 20 years ago there was no alternative. Change for change's sake or just want to stick it to the "man"?

    I've already stated my position - making accusatory "trolling" nonsense means you simply cannot accept my position and therefore must bring in irrelevance to bolster a weak position. I'll save you some time if you're still considering a reply:

    You WON'T change my mind about this. It's a waste of time. That's who I am, that's what I believe, and the definition is what it is. Any other questions or clarifications - please see my prior posts. Ibid.
    Last edited by Ockham; 01-14-10 at 04:03 PM.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    Actually, considering the court case now going on in California and the arguments made there, the poll is an accurate reflection of the anti-SSM argument. In the California case, defendant's counsel is arguing that marriage is primarily about procreation--it's a means of giving legal protections and incentives to couples who can have children. That means giving heterosexuals an advantage over homosexuals because society benefits from their producing children and rearing them within intact families.
    However this is a flawed thinking based on one simple thing...

    People don't have to have children to enter into a marriage.

    People unable to have children can enter into a marriage.

    If that was the legal reasoning than sterile men and women should not be allowed to enter into marriage and others would have to make a pledge upon marrying that they WILL have a kid.

    Which is in and of itself ridiculous.

    We want people to give to charity, so we give them legal advantages through tax breaks.
    However we don't give those tax breaks UNTIL they give to charity.

    We want people to own their homes, so we give homeowners legal advantages through tax breaks.
    however we don't give those tax breaks UNTIL they buy a house.

    We want people to have children and rear them with intact, two parent families, so we give them legal advantages via marriage.
    And if this was the actual legal reasoning we shouldn't give them those benefits UNTIL they have a kid.

    But we don't, because its not.

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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    However this is a flawed thinking based on one simple thing...

    People don't have to have children to enter into a marriage.

    People unable to have children can enter into a marriage.
    Benign examples which prove the rule.

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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    the question is "for what purpose is a long standing word being redefined?
    Same reason we freed the slaves. We understood the base humanity between all humans, white or black. Straight or gay in this context. And by admitting that gay people are human and thus in possession of the full set of human rights; they too have the right to contract. As marriage is a contract granted through the use of government, the government cannot discriminate upon sexual preferences. We adapt and change our concepts because things today are not as they were 1000's of years ago. Everything changes and we begin to understand the world and choices and people better as our societies and knowledge evolves. Since homosexuals are human with the same rights as everyone else, they are more than free to engage in contract. Because we recognize homosexuals as human, the government may not discriminate against them along those lines and cannot refuse the contract of the marriage license from them.

    As we grow, we are meant to become more free; not less. To accept, not condemn.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    The current definition of marriage has been in place for over a thousand years in one form or another.
    Wait the current "definition" of one man one woman has been in place for over a thousand years?

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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    However this is a flawed thinking based on one simple thing...

    People don't have to have children to enter into a marriage.

    People unable to have children can enter into a marriage.

    If that was the legal reasoning than sterile men and women should not be allowed to enter into marriage and others would have to make a pledge upon marrying that they WILL have a kid.

    Which is in and of itself ridiculous.



    However we don't give those tax breaks UNTIL they give to charity.



    however we don't give those tax breaks UNTIL they buy a house.



    And if this was the actual legal reasoning we shouldn't give them those benefits UNTIL they have a kid.

    But we don't, because its not.
    Hope you understand that I'm not supporting that argument, just laying it out to defend against the charge that this is somehow a troll thread.

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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Benign examples which prove the rule.
    What does that even mean? How does an exception "prove" anything? You're being illogical.

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    Re: Should Same Sex People be allowed to Marry

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Wait the current "definition" of one man one woman has been in place for over a thousand years?
    Nope, the definition has changed. Polygamy used to be very common, but society's needs changed and the definition was redefined. Marriage as we know it today was not the same as it once way. It also was once an mechanism of property transfer when women were considered property. That's where the father giving away the bride came from. But that too changed, we recognize women not as property, but as humans. Now they are free to engage in the contract of marriage at their leisure. But don't try to burst his "tradition" argument too violently.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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