French law could see fines for burqas

Partisan · Jan 17, 2010

Arcana XV said:
Absolutely. I think it's shameful what French politicians are doing. They're trying to fix a massive social problem they should have tackled at least two decades ago, by targeting this new wave of burqa wearing immigrants who had nothing to do with the original problem in the first place. It's like giving a bandaid to a cancer patient and hoping that it will be the magical cure everyone is hoping for.

You are correct, the U.s. is having the same problem with immigrants who do not want to assimilate......

Ronald Reeagan made the first mistake is 1986, & now the mistake is close to being repeated....

Maximus Zeebra · Jan 17, 2010

Mira said:
You are correct and I will never emphasise enough that the problem with the immigrant community is France is S.O.C.I.A.L and NOT religious.

The immigrant problem in France is RACIAL, not religious nor social. All immigration problems are racial.

Partisan · Jan 17, 2010

Maximus Zeebra said:
The immigrant problem in France is RACIAL, not religious nor social. All immigration problems are racial.

Yes, racial but they still don't want to assimilate, which makes it a social problem as well.....

Maximus Zeebra · Jan 17, 2010

Partisan said:
Yes, racial but they still don't want to assimilate, which makes it a social problem as well.....

Mention me one historical example where a bi-racial society has worked in a society with one or several substantial minorities of a different race than the large majority.

I dont believe it can work.. Tiny minorities and regular immigration, population mix and such can work, the US(also) is proof of that. But when it comes to large minorities even there blacks and hispanics(both large minorities) are discriminated against and doesnt enjoy the same rights(in practice) or status as the majority(whites), and in practice live seperated from the whites.

Races seems incapable of mixing in such a way. In Europe its arabs and blacks.

Mira · Jan 17, 2010

Maximus Zeebra said:
The immigrant problem in France is RACIAL, not religious nor social. All immigration problems are racial.

It is the racial discrimination that creates the social problems. The final result: social problems.

Arcana XV · Jan 17, 2010

Maximus Zeebra said:
The immigrant problem in France is RACIAL, not religious nor social. All immigration problems are racial.

It's both racial and social actually. The latent racism against Arabs in France has led to enormous social problems within the Arab-descent community. This is what needs fixing, not what clothes women are seen wearing in public. Ironically, women of Arab descent seem to fare a lot better socially than the men do. Which probably has a lot to do with the anger and resentment these young men feel towards these girls who seem a lot better integrated and accepted than they are.

Arcana XV · Jan 17, 2010

Partisan said:
Yes, racial but they still don't want to assimilate, which makes it a social problem as well.....

That's not really true. French Muslims are a lot more assimilated than many of their fellow Muslims elsewhere in Europe. Most of them are actually quite secular. The problem is not that they don't assimilate, the problem is that French society at large still sees them as second class citizens; doesn't much care about improving their precarious social conditions; doesn't really work hard at ending the latent racism still present in the country and is very quick to place blame on them whenever anything goes wrong.

Mira · Jan 17, 2010

Arcana XV said:
It's both racial and social actually. The latent racism against Arabs in France has led to enormous social problems within the Arab-descent community. This is what needs fixing, not what clothes women are seen wearing in public. Ironically, women of Arab descent seem to fare a lot better socially than the men do. Which probably has a lot to do with the anger and resentment these young men feel towards these girls who seem a lot better integrated and accepted than they are.

I've been to Algeria several times and once on assignment for ELLE magazine on a story about Algerian women.

They are VERY courageous and very active in the social and political arena. In the 90s they were the loudest voice against the rise of the Islamic radical groups such as FIS and were not even intimidated by death threats. They were very active in the resistance movement FLN and played a great role in the independence of Algeria.

Coming back to France, they are mostly secular and involved in associative work.

Maximus Zeebra · Jan 17, 2010

Mira said:
It is the racial discrimination that creates the social problems. The final result: social problems.

But is racial discrimination not unavoidable when minorities of other races become substantial?

Gardener · Jan 17, 2010

Arcana XV said:
That's not really true. French Muslims are a lot more assimilated than many of their fellow Muslims elsewhere in Europe.

and those who are assimilated DON'T want he burqa, and are the very people most endangered by the spread of its use.

Arcana XV said:
the problem is that French society at large still sees them as second class citizens; doesn't much care about improving their precarious social conditions; doesn't really work hard at ending the latent racism still present in the country and is very quick to place blame on them whenever anything goes wrong.

Considering the political correctness of Europeans as a whole, either that last statement of yours reflects deep divide between French attitudes and the majority of western Europe or that those actually holding those beliefs simply do not share them with others.

If you were to change that last line to read "are quick to excuse Muslims for the atrocities they do commit in the name of their religion", I think you would be more on the mark at least for the majority.

Maximus Zeebra · Jan 17, 2010

Arcana XV said:
That's not really true. French Muslims are a lot more assimilated than many of their fellow Muslims elsewhere in Europe. Most of them are actually quite secular. The problem is not that they don't assimilate, the problem is that French society at large still sees them as second class citizens; doesn't much care about improving their precarious social conditions; doesn't really work hard at ending the latent racism still present in the country and is very quick to place blame on them whenever anything goes wrong.

Isnt all this boiling back to the race question. Is it possible for one race to not treat a second and third minority race as secondary? Also racial conflict is the root of the problem.

Is there really any way around this?

Mira · Jan 17, 2010

Maximus Zeebra said:
But is racial discrimination not unavoidable when minorities of other races become substantial?

A country either considers itself civilised or it doesn't. A civilised country fights against racism and tries to eradicate it.

Otherwise it only pretends to be civilised.

Maximus Zeebra · Jan 17, 2010

Mira said:
A country either considers itself civilised or it doesn't. A civilised country fights against racism and tries to eradicate it.

Otherwise it only pretends to be civilised.

But all countries in the west fights against racism, yet we all have non white minorities that are not at all integrated into society and are treated as second ranked citizens.

Mira · Jan 17, 2010

Maximus Zeebra said:
But all countries in the west fights against racism, yet we all have non white minorities that are not at all integrated into society and are treated as second ranked citizens.

Well, then they're not fighting enough against racism.

There is certainly more work to be done.

It's a choice, we either go toward civilisation or toward barbarism.

Our government seems to be taking us toward barbarism.

Maximus Zeebra · Jan 17, 2010

Mira said:
Well, then they're not fighting enough against racism.

There is certainly more work to be done.

It's a choice, we either go toward civilisation or toward barbarism.

Our government seems to be taking us toward barbarism.

Maybe the fight is impossible?

Consider the Arabs and Blacks in Frace.
Turkish in Germany.
Indians and Pakistanis in the UK.
Pakistanis and others in Scandinavia.
Hispanics and Blacks in the US.

And so fourth...

Mention me one example of a successfull bi/tri-racial society where all races as a whole are integrated, treated equal and live the same way. Certainly not in any of these societies.
I cant think of any historical examples either where this has succeeded.

Mira · Jan 17, 2010

Maximus Zeebra said:
Maybe the fight is impossible?

Consider the Arabs and Blacks in Frace.
Turkish in Germany.
Indians and Pakistanis in the UK.
Pakistanis and others in Scandinavia.
Hispanics and Blacks in the US.

And so fourth...

Mention me one example of a successfull bi/tri-racial society where all races as a whole are integrated, treated equal and live the same way. Certainly not in any of these societies.
I cant think of any historical examples either where this has succeeded.

Societies evolve and so do situations.

Before there used to be colonies, now there is migration of people for economical reasons.

If a society does not evolve and adapt according to the given situation, it will not be considered civilised.

If there hasn't been any 100% successful multicultural society until now it is because societies of rich nations are still getting adapted to the recent reality of mass migration.

Arcana XV · Jan 17, 2010

Gardener said:
and those who are assimilated DON'T want he burqa, and are the very people most endangered by the spread of its use.

Of course, they don't want the burqa. But many of them still want the ability to chose to wear hijab. There was a strong backlash against the efforts of some politicians to completely ban headscarves a while back. Women who were not wearing them, often highly educated women, started to wear them as a political statement. This despite the rising violence in those godforsaken suburbs. I wouldn't be surprised if a similar backlash happened this time around. French Muslims are a very different breed from other European Muslims. Especially the women.

Considering the political correctness of Europeans as a whole, either that last statement of yours reflects deep divide between French attitudes and the majority of western Europe or that those actually holding those beliefs simply do not share them with others.

If you were to change that last line to read "are quick to excuse Muslims for the atrocities they do commit in the name of their religion", I think you would be more on the mark at least for the majority.

That may be true elsewhere in Europe, but certainly not in France. Different Muslim demographics, different colonial history.

Arcana XV · Jan 17, 2010

Mira said:
I've been to Algeria several times and once on assignment for ELLE magazine on a story about Algerian women.

They are VERY courageous and very active in the social and political arena. In the 90s they were the loudest voice against the rise of the Islamic radical groups such as FIS and were not even intimidated by death threats. They were very active in the resistance movement FLN and played a great role in the independence of Algeria.

Coming back to France, they are mostly secular and involved in associative work.

Oh, they're feisty alright.

Have you heard about that Algerian actress that got attacked last week? She's still bravely going ahead with her show. This is the kind of role model young French Muslim girls need.

Mira · Jan 17, 2010

Arcana XV said:
Oh, they're feisty alright. Have you heard about that Algerian actress that got attacked last week? She's still bravely going ahead with her show. This is the kind of role model young French Muslim girls need.

Of course I heard about her. A good example of someone who has the guts to stand in the face of radicalims even after she almost lost her own face.

Gardener · Jan 17, 2010

Arcana XV said:
Of course, they don't want the burqa. But many of them still want the ability to chose to wear hijab. There was a strong backlash against the efforts of some politicians to completely ban headscarves a while back. Women who were not wearing them, often highly educated women, started to wear them as a political statement. This despite the rising violence in those godforsaken suburbs. I wouldn't be surprised if a similar backlash happened this time around. French Muslims are a very different breed from other European Muslims. Especially the women.

Well, it is evident that people must get so caught up in "slippery slope" arguments and/or their own dogmatism that they cannot distinguish between this:

and this:

Arcana XV said:
That may be true elsewhere in Europe, but certainly not in France. Different Muslim demographics, different colonial history.

Well, if muslims are most assimilated in France, which has the lowest degree of political correctness and least assimilated in places like Britain which has the highest degree of political correctness, is there anybody else out there but me who notices the correlation -- one that could very well be a case of cause and effect?

Seems a simple enough concept to grasp -- if you want people to assimilate, treat them with the expectation that they WILL assimilate, and if you don't want them to assimilate, adopt the typical politically correct multiculturalist apologetics.

TacticalEvilDan · Jan 17, 2010

Apocalypse said:
While far from being simple logic, this is an unsupported claim.
I honestly do not believe that the Islamic communities would lock up their women.
Someone needs to do the shopping, right?

You seriously think that someone who is so fanatical about a particular code of conduct that they will strong-arm someone else into covering themselves from head to foot is going to simply go "okay, never mind, my bad" if it gets outlawed?

I think it's far more likely that they'll just find another way to, um, get their groceries.

For someone who seems to want to ascribe the practice of honor killing exclusively to Muslim zealots, you sure don't give them much credit for sticking to their guns in matters of modesty.

Apocalypse said:
You've given an article that supports my point that honor killings are identified with Islam. Good job.

Now you're being deliberately obtuse. I previously said, "Lots of women die in honor killings every year that have nothing to do with Islam." You asked for proof. That article is exactly that.

Apocalypse said:
I can also testify that all of the honor killings in Israel, one of the states that were listed in the article, are Muslim-made. 100%.

Well, I'm glad you were there for 100% of the honor killings in Israel. :lol:

That is what you meant by testify, right?

Apocalypse said:
I gave you a reference to my arguments, this is pure trolling and is against the forum's rules.
Consider yourself reported for the good of the clean debaters, or in other words, those who are capable of creating arguments.

:lol:

Oh, boy.

TacticalEvilDan · Jan 17, 2010

Arcana XV said:
Yep, someone does. The daughter, the niece, the young girls who are unmarried and still in school where they aren't allowed to wear even a simple hijab. The new generation that will probably never don a burqa. It's too late for the mother. She's been indoctrinated with the idea never to show any part of her body to men who aren't family members and she will not take the off her burqa unless her husband commands it.

Oh, now, there you go, making sense again.

Apocalypse · Jan 17, 2010

TacticalEvilDan said:
You seriously think that someone who is so fanatical about a particular code of conduct that they will strong-arm someone else into covering themselves from head to foot is going to simply go "okay, never mind, my bad" if it gets outlawed?

I believe that the law's enforcement would be the cause for a drastic decrease, notice the words used, in the violence towards non-obedience Islamic women.

For someone who seems to want to ascribe the practice of honor killing exclusively to Muslim zealots, you sure don't give them much credit for sticking to their guns in matters of modesty.

Identified is not exclusively.
You are not that good with English are you?

Now you're being deliberately obtuse. I previously said, "Lots of women die in honor killings every year that have nothing to do with Islam." You asked for proof. That article is exactly that.

:lol:

You insist on relying on that article when it clearly paints the Honor killing as an Islamic-identified action, contrary to your truth rejection here.

Well, I'm glad you were there for 100% of the honor killings in Israel.

There are many forms of witnessing, sir BiologicalCrippleDan. :2razz:

Arcana XV · Jan 17, 2010

Gardener said:
Well, it is evident that people must get so caught up in "slippery slope" arguments and/or their own dogmatism that they cannot distinguish between this:

and this:

They're not the only ones that get caught up in it. Most political parties in France are extremely reluctant to adopt this law, even the ruling party is very divided on this. Most arguments against the ban and especially the fine are based on basic French republican values of personal liberty. The snag is with the equality issue, but most believe that it can be solved without damaging the personal liberty clause. Others claim that the secular French republican values should take precedence in this issue, but that is correctly shot down by the argument that the secular clause applies to the government and not the individual. It's going to be one hell of a debate when this gets discussed by the lawmakers.

Well, if muslims are most assimilated in France, which has the lowest degree of political correctness and least assimilated in places like Britain which has the highest degree of political correctness, is there anybody else out there but me who notices the correlation -- one that could very well be a case of cause and effect?

Seems a simple enough concept to grasp -- if you want people to assimilate, treat them with the expectation that they WILL assimilate, and if you don't want them to assimilate, adopt the typical politically correct multiculturalist apologetics.

Maybe. Just as long as they don't make the mistake France has made, to still consider an entire generation of French citizens as second class. It's all well and good that they're assimilated and that they consider themselves French above all else, but if the society around them makes them feel like outcasts huge problems are bound to surface.

TacticalEvilDan · Jan 17, 2010

Apocalypse said:
I believe that the law's enforcement would be the cause for a drastic decrease, notice the words used, in the violence towards non-obedience Islamic women.

That made absolutely no sense. Could you maybe rephrase that?

Apocalypse said:
Identified is not exclusively. You are not that good with English are you?

Okay, so you're either incapable of following what I'm saying, or you're choosing not to because you think you can piss me off enough that I'll make a blatant mistake which you can then point to in a half-assed attempt to discredit my entire argument.

Noted.

Apocalypse said:
There are many forms of witnessing, sir BiologicalCrippleDan. :2razz:

That's awfully funny, coming from someone who just accused me of being a troll. :lol:

French law could see fines for burqas

Burqa ban+fine, example to follow or shy

This law should be completely implemented in the West

This law is a must in general

This law is good

The law is not good

Other opinion(explain).

MoG

MoG

MoG

free market communist

MoG

MoG

MoG

free market communist

Shankmasta Killa

Shankmasta Killa

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!

Shankmasta Killa