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French law could see fines for burqas

Burqa ban+fine, example to follow or shy

  • This law should be completely implemented in the West

    Votes: 6 15.4%

  • This law is a must in general

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • This law is good

    Votes: 3 7.7%

  • The law is not good

    Votes: 24 61.5%

  • Other opinion(explain).

    Votes: 6 15.4%
  • Total voters
    39
Apocalypse said:
Honor killing is a recognized term, and is identified with Islam.
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Here, let me fix that:

Honor killing is a recognized term, and is inaccurately identified with Islam, seeing as how it happens in lots of cases where Islam isn't a factor.
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Apocalypse said:
Indeed, and that is why we choose to prefer the woman's safety and freedom over the woman's pleasure from wearing a blanket.

How dramatic must it be for a woman to be told not to wear a certain blanket.
I do not know how would I carry on with life.
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Can you explain to me, please, how taking someone's freedom away is choosing their freedom?

At any rate, this rather absurd argument could be used to justify the stripping of any of a number of different civil liberties. The important point isn't how little damage you think you're doing by taking a freedom away, the important point is how much actual damage a person is doing to those around them when they exercise that freedom.

Would you care to quantify the damage done by women in Burkas to people around them simply by wearing the Burka?
 
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rivrrat said:
Why don't you attempt to explain how it ISNT sexist.


Yup, you attempted to explain how you perceived any choice to have a negative impact on their life. You FEEL that any choice has a negative outcome. Why don't you let women decide that for themselves. There are many thousands who would disagree with you. Oh wait... they're just screwed up in the head, right? I mean, no woman in their right mind would go against what you think is best for them, right? No woman in her right mind would dare think differently than you, correct?


Yes, it is. You can't let them choose for themselves, as the all powerful man, you must make the choice for them. Because you know what's best for them better than they do, I'm sure.


Indeed, but those are all topics for another conversation.


I understand completely. It would seem that you are the one who is lacking clarity.
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Should have taken Gardener's way and ignored you from the start.
I would simply not spend my time any longer on a person who is not able to go beyond baseless personal accusations.

I hope you're satisfied with the way you've been handling this argument.
 
Apocalypse said:
I find it hilarious that you honestly believe I'm motivated by Sexism.

If I'm your version of a Sexist, then it doesn't seem like you know a thing about Sexism.
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When the same sorts of conversations were held 150 years ago in regards to slavery, those who wished to continue slavery often pointed out the (supposedly) happy house slaves who expressed contentment with their lot.

I wonder if those who were opposed to slavery back then also had to face an onslaught by stupid reactionaries that it was their desire to end slavery that was actually racist?
 
Dav said:
And by then it's too late. The damage is done. It's the threat of abuse that keeps the women obedient, not the abuse itself. Besides, do you really think that criminals are always caught by the police? Or that women are always willing to get their family put in jail, no matter how abusive?
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No, criminals are not always caught, frequently because victims CHOOSE not to press charges or help the police. Yes. CHOOSE.

Women aren't always willing to put their family in jail? Willing implies choice, does it not? That is their CHOICE.

A woman who has a multitude of resources to get out of an abusive relationship but yet keeps going back and going back makes the CHOICE to do so. Yes. The choice.

You're the one being insensitive towards these women here, not the people you're arguing against. Stop telling them that the horrible conditions they're forced to suffer through is "their choice", as if life is always that simple. It's a bit sickening, really.
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It is their choice if they choose to remain there. It is their choice if they don't take advantage of the numerous opportunities (namely, the ****ing police) to get out of an abusive relationship. When ****ing cop comes to the door and the woman remains silent, that is HER CHOICE. I agree, it is sickening that so many women - Muslim and non-Muslim - willingly choose to remain in abusive situations when there are countless people ready, willing, and able to get them and keep them safe. Yes, it IS sickening.

If they are being kept under lock and key, then that's a different matter. But then, banning the burqa isn't going to do jack **** to help them because the least of their worries is what piece of cloth is on their bodies.

You are totally missing the point here, which is that illegal things happen, so claiming that women can't be oppressed by something that isn't the government in a Western country is inaccurate, not to mention insensitive.
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Yeah sure. Women who drive past shelters and police stations and instead head right back into the arms of the very person abusing them doesn't happen, right? Like I said, if someone is being kept under lock and key where they are unable to speak to or see another person, then of course it's not their choice. But, if they are out on the street, walking past cops, and thousands of other people, and they head right on back to the abuse, then yes... it IS their choice. In the western world.


He said that if women say that they want to wear such clothing, then they probably suffer Stockholm Syndrome (which he never said that men couldn't develop). He never said anything about the women having a choice; he simply said that they had been psychologically conditioned to prefer the only option which they had been given.
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Which is utter bull****.


You also apparently disrespect imaginary misogyny and sexism.
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No, just the blatant and obvious.
 
Arcana XV said:
Well, that's the thing. I don't think this should be included in the package. On the one hand you have a Muslim community that imposes all sorts of demands on their women and in order to liberate them from that we want to add more stress into their lives by forbidding them to dress a certain way. I don't see how that makes any sense.
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By leveling the playing field, you are taking away one excuse for attacking them. It won't end the attacks, certainly, but it will take away one of the superficial reasons for doing so supported by the wider community.
 
Gardener said:
When the same sorts of conversations were held 150 years ago in regards to slavery, those who wished to continue slavery often pointed out the (supposedly) happy house slaves who expressed contentment with their lot.

I wonder if those who were opposed to slavery back then also had to face an onslaught by stupid reactionaries that it was their desire to end slavery that was actually racist?
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The problem with your argument is that since we have no way of addressing the particulars of what goes on behind closed doors with respect to Burkas (absent some sort of an official complaint, charges, or surveillance footage, of course), you can't prove who is a slave and who is being paid to pick the cotton.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Here, let me fix that:
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Here, let me fix that:
TacticalEvilDan said:
Here, let me make an infantile, failing attempt at making a point that is inherently false, while proving everyone and their grandma that I am unable of contradicting an opposing statement:
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Can you explain to me, please, how taking someone's freedom away is choosing their freedom?
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Nobody's freedom is being taken away, certainly not by banning a certain and very specific clothing.
At any rate, this rather absurd argument could be used to justify the stripping of any of a number of different civil liberties.
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How so?
The important point isn't how little damage you think you're doing by taking a freedom away, the important point is how much actual damage a person is doing to those around them when they exercise that freedom.

Would you care to quantify the damage done by women in Burkas to people around them simply by wearing the Burka?
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Where did I speak on a damage to people surrounding the burqa-wearing woman?
What in heavens are you talking about?
Did you even bother reading the arguments, or did you simply automatically decided to side yourself with the blankets?
 
Apocalypse said:
I hope you're satisfied with the way you've been handling this argument.
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Of course I am. If I weren't, I wouldn't do it.

I hope you're satisfied keeping such sexist attitudes toward women. The sad thing is, they are the WORST kind of sexist attitudes. Because you actually think you're doing women a favor. It is, to say the least, sad.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
I'm going to guess that you live in the United States, based upon your signature, since you didn't fill out your location information. If you live somewhere where that sort of thing is acceptable behavior, then I guess you can feel free to ignore what follows.

That aside, shame on you. That kind of high school bullying is contrary to every basic principle of freedom espoused by the United States, as outlined in the Tenth Amendment -- my freedoms stop where your nose starts.

Nobody's telling you to wear a Burka, and someone else's Burka doesn't curtail your freedoms or safety any more than a full-length duster, a baggy jacket, or a backpack do.
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:lol: Cry me a river.

Actually, it fits perfectly with one of the most basic and fundamental principles of freedom ever conceived. Ever heard of free speech???
 
rivrrat said:
Of course I am. If I weren't, I wouldn't do it.

I hope you're satisfied keeping such sexist attitudes toward women. The sad thing is, they are the WORST kind of sexist attitudes. Because you actually think you're doing women a favor. It is, to say the least, sad.
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Alright so now I'm the worst kind of a Sexist.

Seems like I've made the right decision to stop arguing with you, Cruella de Vil.
 
Apocalypse said:
Here, let me fix that:
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In other words, you can't address my point. Noted.

I did, by the way, mean to take your name out of the fixed quote, my apologies for that.

Apocalypse said:
Nobody's freedom is being taken away, certainly not by banning a certain and very specific clothing.
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You're taking away the freedom to wear a certain and very specific clothing.

Apocalypse said:
How so?
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You're essentially justifying the proposed removal of freedom to wear Burkas as a pre-emptive strike designed to protect someone else's safety and freedom. It's basically a "for your own good" argument. That argument can be used to justify a great many injustices in the name of protecting people from themselves and others.

Apocalypse said:
Where did I speak on a damage to people surrounding the burqa-wearing woman?
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I never said you did. I said that that is the important point, as in that's the question we should be asking ourselves, then I asked you to quantify the harm Burka-wearing women are doing to those around them.

Care to answer the question, or have you no answer?
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
The problem with your argument is that since we have no way of addressing the particulars of what goes on behind closed doors with respect to Burkas (absent some sort of an official complaint, charges, or surveillance footage, of course), you can't prove who is a slave and who is being paid to pick the cotton.
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House slaves and field slaves were both slaves.

Whether a women wears it because she considers it protection against gang rape, or whether she wears it because she would be badly hurt in other ways, the coercive elements are the same. Like slavery, it is an entire SYSTEM that needs to be addressed here, and continuing this system just because a few have been conditioned to support it is NOT a valid reason for continuing to support this system - -especially if one makes the claim they have any empathy whatsoever for those systematically brutalized by it.

There is a bigger picture involved here than the extremely simple minded argument that "it's their choice".
 
ScummyD said:
Actually, it fits perfectly with one of the most basic and fundamental principles of freedom ever conceived. Ever heard of free speech???
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You're entirely welcome to espouse distasteful, immature, reactionary positions under the First Amendment, it's true.

You should still be ashamed of yourself, and I hope your distorted view of the world comes nowhere near being codified on the law books.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
You're entirely welcome to espouse distasteful, immature, reactionary positions under the First Amendment, it's true.

You should still be ashamed of yourself, and I hope your distorted view of the world comes nowhere near being codified on the law books.
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I'm curious, did you miss it where I said a law like this should never be implemented in a free society?
 
Apocalypse said:
Alright so now I'm the worst kind of a Sexist.

.
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There is feminism and there is cartoon feminism.

The cartoon feminists lack the intelligence necessary to understand that it is those seeking to end systematic oppression of women who are arguing the feminist position. Unfortunately, though, these cartoon feminists are too filled with hatred of men to ever acknowledge that a man can be concerned with civil rights for women, and so they just lash out with fingers wagging.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
In other words, you can't address my point. Noted.
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I have addressed your point the same way that you have addressed mine, and now you declare it as the incapability to address a point.

How pathetic, really, I feel sorry for your astonishingly weak argument skills. :shrug:
You're taking away the freedom to wear a certain and very specific clothing.
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Indeed, a very different statement than "you take away people's freedom".
I am willing to allow the minor violation of a woman's freedom in order to ensure the safety of many other women, just like her.
You're essentially justifying the proposed removal of freedom to wear Burkas as a pre-emptive strike designed to protect someone else's safety and freedom. It's basically a "for your own good" argument. That argument can be used to justify a great many injustices in the name of protecting people from themselves and others.
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Are you suggesting that the women living in Islamic communities are capable of combating this oppression?
Because it doesn't seem to be so, seeing that thousands of them die due to honor killings every year.
I never said you did. I said that that is the important point, as in that's the question we should be asking ourselves, then I asked you to quantify the harm Burka-wearing women are doing to those around them.

Care to answer the question, or have you no answer?
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Since it is not related to my argument and I do not argue for or against the damage that Burqa-wearing women do to their surroundings, I have no opinion on the issue as to present time.
Consider me neutral if you must.

I am focused on my own argument, if you wish to address its points then be my guest, if you wish to make infantile comments then you are welcomed to speak to the wall.
 
Gardener said:
Whether a women wears it because she considers it protection against gang rape, or whether she wears it because she would be badly hurt in other ways, the coercive elements are the same.
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True.

Are those the only possible reasons she might choose to wear it though? Remember, we can actually read their words, not just assume for ourselves.

There is a bigger picture involved here than the extremely simple minded argument that "it's their choice".
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Yes - there's the quite dangerous idea that you know better than they do what's good for them, and that there's no possible way a burqa could be worn as a positive, healthy decision.
 
misterman said:
True.

Are those the only possible reasons she might choose to wear it though? Remember, we can actually read their words, not just assume for ourselves.



Yes - there's the quite dangerous idea that you know better than they do what's good for them, and that there's no possible way a burqa could be worn as a positive, healthy decision.
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I would rather inconvenience a few very slightly while saving many others quite thoroughly, while you would rather condemn the many quite thoroughly in order to satisfy the convenience of the few.

I am quite comfortable with this difference between us.
 
Gardener said:
There is feminism and there is cartoon feminism.

The cartoon feminists lack the intelligence necessary to understand that it is those seeking to end systematic oppression of women who are arguing the feminist position. Unfortunately, though, these cartoon feminists are too filled with hatred of men to ever acknowledge that a man can be concerned with civil rights for women, and so they just lash out with fingers wagging.
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LMFAO Yeah, that's what it is. It has nothing to do with the condescending bull**** y'all have been spewing regarding women and their inability to make choices for themselves.

If your idea of ending your perceived oppression of women is to further oppress women, then you're the one lacking in any common sense. Men like you wanted to keep women from voting 'for their own good'. Men like you wanted to keep women out of the workforce 'for their own good'. Men like you want to keep women out of the military 'for their own good'. You bundle up your sexist ideals in pretty little packages and liken them to some kind of chivalry and condemn any woman who would dare to disagree with the condescending nature of your statements. Yeah, I don't think taking away women's choices is removing oppression, therefore *I* must be the unintelligent one.

Like I said, do women a favor and stop trying to 'help' us. We don't need men like you to define when and if we're being oppressed and we sure **** don't need you to take away more of our choices under the guise of 'helping' us. We aren't children and we don't need more men like you to treat us like we are.
 
Gardener said:
I would rather inconvenience a few very slightly while saving many others quite thoroughly, while you would rather condemn the many quite thoroughly in order to satisfy the convenience of the few.

I am quite comfortable with this difference between us.
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Me too. You're a tyrant, I believe in freedom.

Seriously, you do realize that it's possible to have a compromise, don't you? Think about it.
 
Gardener said:
House slaves and field slaves were both slaves.
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Irrelevant, seeing as how I already stated that in this case, you can't tell the difference between slaves and employees, since you can't tell the difference between those who elect to wear the Burka and those who are forced to wear it.

Gardener said:
Whether a women wears it because she considers it protection against gang rape, or whether she wears it because she would be badly hurt in other ways, the coercive elements are the same.
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Are you arguing that there are no other reasons women wear Burkas in an enlightened country like France?

Gardener said:
Like slavery, it is an entire SYSTEM that needs to be addressed here, and continuing this system just because a few have been conditioned to support it is NOT a valid reason for continuing to support this system - -especially if one makes the claim they have any empathy whatsoever for those systematically brutalized by it.
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Allowing women to wear Burkas doesn't support the system you're talking about.

If you force all women to shed these garments, then the women who wear them because they are forced to will be forced to remain in their homes. They will not have any meaningful interaction with their neighbors, or anybody else who might have any interest whatsoever in their well-being.

Does that sound like the way to address "the system?"

Gardener said:
There is a bigger picture involved here than the extremely simple minded argument that "it's their choice".
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Absolutely, like not doing more harm with your good intentions.
 
ScummyD said:
I'm curious, did you miss it where I said a law like this should never be implemented in a free society?
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So what? That doesn't make your view any less distasteful, and and I'm no more interested in seeing your view become a matter of law simply because you say it should never be implemented in a free society.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Are you arguing that there are no other reasons women wear Burkas in an enlightened country like France?
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Do you honestly know so little about the practice or the social dynamics involved?

The muslim women involved are NOT, let me repeat NOT living in France society wise. They are living in ghettos in isolated sub communites where they have almost no exposure to Freance.

Those Muslim women who ARE integrated or who DO want to be part of France don't want the Burqa.
 
Gardener said:
Do you honestly know so little about the practice or the social dynamics involved?

The muslim women involved are NOT, let me repeat NOT living in France society wise. They are living in ghettos in isolated sub communites where they have almost no exposure to Freance.

Those Muslim women who ARE integrated or who DO want to be part of France don't want the Burqa.
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Maybe - but how do you know so much about what Muslim women want?
 
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