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French law could see fines for burqas

Burqa ban+fine, example to follow or shy

  • This law should be completely implemented in the West

    Votes: 6 15.4%

  • This law is a must in general

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • This law is good

    Votes: 3 7.7%

  • The law is not good

    Votes: 24 61.5%

  • Other opinion(explain).

    Votes: 6 15.4%
  • Total voters
    39
Gardener said:
It is only because yours is based upon pure ignorance that you would attempt this sort of turnspeak.
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Oh please, do tell me what I'm ignorant about. As a woman, who has been in violent relationships, who is intimately familiar with some of the things that have been mentioned already. Praytell, DO enlighten me.
 
rivrrat said:
Oh please, do tell me what I'm ignorant about. As a woman, who has been in violent relationships, who is intimately familiar with some of the things that have been mentioned already. Praytell, DO enlighten me.
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Right now, I think I will be better off if I just ignore all your stupidity.

You started right in on me with a personal attack, and so I eventually fired back. I will now bow out and let you have the last word.
 
rivrrat said:
And those things happen to non-Islamic women too. Women get beaten, raped and murdered all over the country every day. We don't force them to stay inside because of it. We don't take away their rights because of possible violence enacted against them. We actually go for the source.
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We're specifically addressing the Islamic oppression of women here, not the overall women abuse in the world, which is a much smaller of a problem than the Islamic oppression of women. (With all due honesty)
And what the hell makes you think I'm not "aware" of how such families operate?
That I'm not "aware", intimately, of what can happen to women who are in abusive relationships or the threat of them such as some Muslim women are in?
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Your words.
What else could?
The fact that SOME Muslim women
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Yes, let's soften things up by saying "some" while it's actually a huge amount of Muslim women.
live under threat of violence is no cause for limiting some of THEIR RIGHTS and the rights of all other women in the world.
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That is your position, I believe that it is a cause.
Are you really under the delusion that the violence will stop because they're not afforded the legal choice to wear a certain outfit any longer? Seriously?
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Stop? No.
Drastically decrease?
Yes.
And I couldn't give a honest damn about how you label my position.
You really think it's that ****ing simple? Take away someone's rights and it makes it all better?
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Nobody takes rights away here.
There is no right to wear blankets.
You may as well make it a law that all women can't go out past dark because they might get hurt. Or hell, don't allow them to marry at all because god knows they might choose a violent husband.
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That would be stupid.
Banning the Burqas would, however, mean that it is not the women's choice to wear them, and hence, would create no reason for honor killings over that, as even the Islamic community would understand that when there is a law that is being forced, they cannot kill their women for abiding itt - since all of those women would have to abide the law.
We can't let them make a choice, they might make the wrong one.
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There's no wrong choice here.
There is the choice to be oppressed because you like life, there is the choice to take risks for your freedom, and there is the choice to put on a blanket because you think it's awesome or it's Halloween or whatever.
It's ****ing retarded.
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Retards tend to write in caps.
And insulting to ALL women.
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Umm, caps.
The attitude that some of you guys have regarding women being able to choose for themselves, even if it's not the damn choice YOU would make is astounding. It's amazing to me just how sexist so many men still are today.
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So I am a sexist now?
Do realize that your accusations have became valueless once you have wrongly applied them to promote your argument.
 
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ScummyD said:
The way to change things is from the bottom up and not top down authoritarianism. When you see these clowns walking around in costumes mock and ridicule them out of existence. If they want to hide behind full body drapes tell them just to stay home behind closed doors altogether like the freaks that they are.
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I'm going to guess that you live in the United States, based upon your signature, since you didn't fill out your location information. If you live somewhere where that sort of thing is acceptable behavior, then I guess you can feel free to ignore what follows.

That aside, shame on you. That kind of high school bullying is contrary to every basic principle of freedom espoused by the United States, as outlined in the Tenth Amendment -- my freedoms stop where your nose starts.

Nobody's telling you to wear a Burka, and someone else's Burka doesn't curtail your freedoms or safety any more than a full-length duster, a baggy jacket, or a backpack do.
 
Apocalypse said:
We're specifically addressing the Islamic oppression of women here, not the overall women abuse in the world, which is a much smaller of a problem than the Islamic oppression of women. (With all due honesty)
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Women being abused is women being abused.

Your words.
What else could?
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Oh please.

Yes, let's soften things up by saying "some" while it's actually a huge amount of Muslim women.
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So wait.. it's not ALL Muslim women, it's not even MOST Muslim women. It's SOME. That's not "softening" anything up, that's being accurate. It's a small percentage of all Muslim women.

Nobody takes rights away here.
There is no right to wear blankets.
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Yeah, clothing choices aren't rights. We should just all wear uniforms. That would stop a vast amount of violence, after all. And no rights would be infringed. :roll:

Banning the Burqas would, however, mean that it is not the women's choice to wear them
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Exactly. You remove their choice and pretend that removing their choice is for their own good. Like a parent does a child. Don't sit there and pretend you're doing women any favors by removing or limiting their choices.


There's no wrong choice here.
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Apparently there is. Since you want to remove the choice altogether. I mean, we can't let women think for themselves after all.

So I am a sexist now?
Do realize that your accusations have became valueless once you have wrongly applied them to promote your argument.
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It is over the top sexist to assume you know better than an entire gender what's best for them and that you should remove or limit their choices in order to "help" them since they are incapable of making the choice themselves. Yeah, it's an extremely sexist attitude. It's the exact same reasoning men had for keeping women from being allowed to vote. "It's for their own good". Ditto for women in the workforce. Ditto for women in the military. ****ing bull****. Same ****ing sexist crap, different day.
 
rivrrat said:
Women being abused is women being abused.
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And the frequency is way higher in the Muslim world.
Are you willing to argue against that statement?
Oh please.
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Please what?
Please don't point out when I do not seem to know what I'm talking about?
So wait.. it's not ALL Muslim women, it's not even MOST Muslim women. It's SOME. That's not "softening" anything up, that's being accurate.
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That's not being accurate since nobody has claimed otherwise.
I haven't seen anyone saying that all of the Muslim women are being oppressed, I myself was speaking on a frequency.
It's a small percentage of all Muslim women.
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That's outright being wrong.
I am willing to argue that the percentage of women who suffer from the consequences of the burqa in the Muslim world is higher than 99%.
Yeah, clothing choices aren't rights. We should just all wear uniforms. That would stop a vast amount of violence, after all. And no rights would be infringed. :roll:
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There is no right to choose what to wear.
There is the right of choice, that includes everything that a person chooses for his own life.
Banning the burqa is a minor if near non-existent violation of the right to choice, and I argue that it is a necessary violation.
Exactly. You remove their choice and pretend that removing their choice is for their own good. Like a parent does a child. Don't sit there and pretend you're doing women any favors by removing or limiting their choices.
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As I said, I couldn't give a damn as to how you choose to label my position.
Apparently there is. Since you want to remove the choice altogether. I mean, we can't let women think for themselves after all.
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No, we just wish to remove their ability to make one of those choices, and by that, to save them from the negative consequences of each choice.
Whether it's the oppression in the first choice, the risk of life at the second, or wearing something ugly in the third.
It is over the top sexist to assume you know better than an entire gender what's best for them and that you should remove or limit their choices in order to "help" them since they are incapable of making the choice themselves. Yeah, it's an extremely sexist attitude. It's the exact same reasoning men had for keeping women from being allowed to vote. "It's for their own good". Ditto for women in the workforce. Ditto for women in the military. ****ing bull****. Same ****ing sexist crap, different day.
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As I said. Valueless.
 
Apocalypse said:
As I said. Valueless.
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Indeed. Sexism is valueless. As is implementing it into law.

The arrogance and ignorance of some men in this thread is astounding.

Do all women in the world a favor, stop "fighting for their rights". The attitudes of people like you set women's civil rights fights back decades.
 
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rivrrat said:
Indeed. Sexism is valueless. As is implementing it into law.

The arrogance and ignorance of some men in this thread is astounding.

Do all women in the world a favor, stop "fighting for their rights". The attitudes of people like you set women's civil rights fights back decades.
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I find it hilarious that you honestly believe I'm motivated by Sexism.

If I'm your version of a Sexist, then it doesn't seem like you know a thing about Sexism.
 
Apocalypse said:
I find it hilarious that you honestly believe I'm motivated by Sexism.

If I'm your version of a Sexist, then it doesn't seem like you know a thing about Sexism.
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If this:

No, we just wish to remove their ability to make one of those choices, and by that, to save them from the negative consequences of each choice
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isn't sexist, I don't know what is.

You want to 'save' women from a possible negative consequence of a choice by removing their ability to make a choice. And hell, Gardner flat out said they weren't mentally competent to make the choice themselves.

How can what you guys are saying be construed as anything BUT sexist? Women can't make the choice themselves, they might make the wrong one and experience a "negative consequence". Women can't make the choice themselves because if they choose to wear a burqa, then they're mentally ****ed in the head anyway. We must 'protect' women from their own choices.

How are those attitudes anything BUT sexist? They're condescending AND sexist. They are the epitome of a sexist attitude. One entire gender can't be allowed to make a choice because they might make the wrong one and they might experience "negative consequences" so you almighty men MUST make the choice for us. Gimme a break. You're treating ALL women like ****ing children and claiming some moral high ground in the process. It's ridiculous.

And I'm honestly astounded that an otherwise intelligent individual is incapable of seeing it.
 
rivrrat said:
Oh give me a ****ing break. They live in western societies with governments that will protect them. If someone did abuse me, I'd have them arrested. If I didn't have them arrested and instead continued to 'obey' them and suffer abuse, well... that would be my choice.
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That is not only wrong, but horribly offensive to the many women who live under the oppressive thumb of their families and are being told that they are only living that way because "it's their choice". The threat of physical, emotional, or sexual violence is enough to keep these women under the veil... and the people who would perform such acts of violence, don't give a sh*t whether or not the government is okay with it.

Do you really think that honor killings and the like don't happen in Western countries? Because they do.

rivrrat said:
No, his position is based on sexism, arrogance, and misogyny.
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This seems to me kind of like saying that an anti-Obama position is based on racism.
 
rivrrat said:
And hell, Gardner flat out said they weren't mentally competent to make the choice themselves.
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No, he said that many of them suffer Stockholm Syndrome. He never said that only women are capable of such a condition.


Keep in mind that I do not support banning or fining burqas. I just, unlike you, respect the opinion of those who do.
 
Dav said:
That is not only wrong, but horribly offensive to the many women who live under the oppressive thumb of their families and are being told that they are only living that way because "it's their choice". The threat of physical, emotional, or sexual violence is enough to keep these women under the veil... and the people who would perform such acts of violence, don't give a sh*t whether or not the government is okay with it.
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THey don't have to give a **** about the government. That is, until the cops come and drag them off to jail. Then they can sit in jail and not give a **** there.

Do you really think that honor killings and the like don't happen in Western countries? Because they do.
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Of course they do. Just like any number of other murders. And? Should we lock women inside and not allow them out because they might be hurt? HOw many other choices should we remove from women so that they don't make the 'wrong' ones?


This seems to me kind of like saying that an anti-Obama position is based on racism.
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Sometimes it is


Dav said:
No, he said that many of them suffer Stockholm Syndrome. He never said that only women are capable of such a condition.
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It's women we're talking about. He said that if women chose to wear such clothing, that they were just ****ed in the head. So obviously, they can't be allowed to make such a choice, right?

Keep in mind that I do not support banning or fining burqas. I just, unlike you, respect the opinion of those who do.
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Feel free to respect whatever you want. I don't respect people's opinions just because they have them. And I most certainly do not respect sexism, condescending attitudes, insulting opinions, or misogyny. You feel free to do so though. And I'll feel free not to respect your respect of their opinions. :lol:
 
rivrrat said:
If this:



isn't sexist, I don't know what is.
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Then go and read a book or something instead of randomly accusing posters of terms that are unknown to you.
You want to 'save' women from a possible negative consequence of a choice by removing their ability to make a choice. And hell, Gardner flat out said they weren't mentally competent to make the choice themselves.

How can what you guys are saying be construed as anything BUT sexist? Women can't make the choice themselves, they might make the wrong one and experience a "negative consequence". Women can't make the choice themselves because if they choose to wear a burqa, then they're mentally ****ed in the head anyway. We must 'protect' women from their own choices.
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In my posts I was quite clear that there is no wrong choice, and that every choice they'd make would have some form of a negative impact on their lives, to the level of being murdered.

Hence, I proposed that by taking the choice away from them, AKA, by banning the burqa, they would not have to face those negative consequences.
How chauvinistic of me, eh?
How are those attitudes anything BUT sexist?
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I don't know, really.
How are they not racist, too.
After all, most of the said women probably belong to the Arab race, no?
Perhaps it's also Islamophobic to look for the safety of the Muslim women that live in Islamic communities?
Might as well consider me a socialist for promoting the state's involvement in the individuals' life, no?
They're condescending AND sexist. They are the epitome of a sexist attitude. One entire gender can't be allowed to make a choice because they might make the wrong one and they might experience "negative consequences" so you almighty men MUST make the choice for us. Gimme a break. You're treating ALL women like ****ing children and claiming some moral high ground in the process. It's ridiculous.

And I'm honestly astounded that an otherwise intelligent individual is incapable of seeing it.
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Do not consider the possibility that you yourself are incapable of seeing what you do not seem to understand, it would only slow you down in your anti-'Sexism' crusade.
 
Dav said:
Do you really think that honor killings and the like don't happen in Western countries? Because they do.
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Of course they do, just as lots of honor killings which have nothing to do with Islam or Sharia law happen all over the world.

So what? You can't differentiate between the women who are forced to wear a Burka and those who wear it because they choose to.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Of course they do, just as lots of honor killings which have nothing to do with Islam or Sharia law happen all over the world.
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Honor killing is a recognized term, and is identified with Islam.
So what? You can't differentiate between the women who are forced to wear a Burka and those who wear it because they choose to.
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Indeed, and that is why we choose to prefer the woman's safety and freedom over the woman's pleasure from wearing a blanket.

How dramatic must it be for a woman to be told not to wear a certain blanket.
I do not know how would I carry on with life.
 
Apocalypse said:
Then go and read a book or something instead of randomly accusing posters of terms that are unknown to you.
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Why don't you attempt to explain how it ISNT sexist.

In my posts I was quite clear that there is no wrong choice, and that every choice they'd make would have some form of a negative impact on their lives, to the level of being murdered.
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Yup, you attempted to explain how you perceived any choice to have a negative impact on their life. You FEEL that any choice has a negative outcome. Why don't you let women decide that for themselves. There are many thousands who would disagree with you. Oh wait... they're just screwed up in the head, right? I mean, no woman in their right mind would go against what you think is best for them, right? No woman in her right mind would dare think differently than you, correct?

Hence, I proposed that by taking the choice away from them, AKA, by banning the burqa, they would not have to face those negative consequences.
How chauvinistic of me, eh?
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Yes, it is. You can't let them choose for themselves, as the all powerful man, you must make the choice for them. Because you know what's best for them better than they do, I'm sure.

I don't know, really.
How are they not racist, too.
After all, most of the said women probably belong to the Arab race, no?
Perhaps it's also Islamophobic to look for the safety of the Muslim women that live in Islamic communities?
Might as well consider me a socialist for promoting the state's involvement in the individuals' life, no?
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Indeed, but those are all topics for another conversation.

Do not consider the possibility that you yourself are incapable of seeing what you do not seem to understand, it would only slow you down in your anti-'Sexism' crusade.
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I understand completely. It would seem that you are the one who is lacking clarity.
 
rivrrat said:
THey don't have to give a **** about the government. That is, until the cops come and drag them off to jail. Then they can sit in jail and not give a **** there.
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And by then it's too late. The damage is done. It's the threat of abuse that keeps the women obedient, not the abuse itself. Besides, do you really think that criminals are always caught by the police? Or that women are always willing to get their family put in jail, no matter how abusive?

You're the one being insensitive towards these women here, not the people you're arguing against. Stop telling them that the horrible conditions they're forced to suffer through is "their choice", as if life is always that simple. It's a bit sickening, really.


Of course they do. Just like any number of other murders. And? Should we lock women inside and not allow them out because they might be hurt? HOw many other choices should we remove from women so that they don't make the 'wrong' ones?
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You are totally missing the point here, which is that illegal things happen, so claiming that women can't be oppressed by something that isn't the government in a Western country is inaccurate, not to mention insensitive.

Sometimes it is
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And usually it's not. But automatically assuming that everyone against Obama is a racist is a completely dishonest debate tactic. The same idea is basically true here.

It's women we're talking about. He said that if women chose to wear such clothing, that they were just ****ed in the head. So obviously, they can't be allowed to make such a choice, right?
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He said that if women say that they want to wear such clothing, then they probably suffer Stockholm Syndrome (which he never said that men couldn't develop). He never said anything about the women having a choice; he simply said that they had been psychologically conditioned to prefer the only option which they had been given.

Feel free to respect whatever you want. I don't respect people's opinions just because they have them. And I most certainly do not respect sexism, condescending attitudes, insulting opinions, or misogyny. You feel free to do so though. And I'll feel free not to respect your respect of their opinions. :lol:
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You also apparently disrespect imaginary misogyny and sexism.
 
Gardener said:
Ultimately, it is only symbolic if nothing else is done. If it is part of a package of actions all geared towards the same end, then it is a useful tool.
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Well, that's the thing. I don't think this should be included in the package. On the one hand you have a Muslim community that imposes all sorts of demands on their women and in order to liberate them from that we want to add more stress into their lives by forbidding them to dress a certain way. I don't see how that makes any sense.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
So what? You can't differentiate between the women who are forced to wear a Burka and those who wear it because they choose to.
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And that is why I am against banning or fining them.

But that does not mean that the women who are forced to wear it don't exist, which is basically rivrrat's argument.
 
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