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French law could see fines for burqas

Burqa ban+fine, example to follow or shy

  • This law should be completely implemented in the West

    Votes: 6 15.4%

  • This law is a must in general

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • This law is good

    Votes: 3 7.7%

  • The law is not good

    Votes: 24 61.5%

  • Other opinion(explain).

    Votes: 6 15.4%
  • Total voters
    39
AgentM said:
I'm kinda torn on this issue, but I lean towards thinking that burqas should be banned. The reason being that we cannot truly know whether a woman is wearing it voluntarily or not. Of course some women tell the media that they do, but are they just saying that because they're under pressure?
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And so you see your lack of knowledge as a reason to empower the government to force people what to wear. Good grief.

Good thing most people don't bow at the alter of authoritarianism masquerading as compassion like you or we'd all be smothered under an iron fist and jackboots.
 
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rivrrat said:
Anyone who is for a ban, is against a woman's right to choose what to wear.
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What a stupid, ignorant position to take.
 
Gardener said:
What a stupid, ignorant position to take.
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Really? Why? If you ban someone from doing something, it takes away their right to choose to do it. Pretty basic English. Works in French too.
 
misterman said:
Really? Why? If you ban someone from doing something, it takes away their right to choose to do it. Pretty basic English. Works in French too.
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They have a right to wear them as long as any passerby on the street is allowed to frisk them for weapons....:mrgreen:
Problem solved.....;)
 
Partisan said:
They have a right to wear them as long as any passerby on the street is allowed to frisk them for weapons....:mrgreen:
Problem solved.....;)
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You can hide weapons under pretty much any clothing. Next time you wear a coat, I will frisk you for weapons. Problem solved.
 
misterman said:
You can hide weapons under pretty much any clothing. Next time you wear a coat, I will frisk you for weapons. Problem solved.
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If you are wearing a coat in July in Miami or Nice, you are gonna get frisked....;)
Problem solved.....;)
 
Dav said:
Nobody is saying that the government is always the one forcing them to wear it. The government isn't the only one who can force/pressure people to do things.
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The they are not forced. They are no more forced to wear them than Amish women are forced to wear the clothes they wear, or nuns are forced to wear the clothes they wear. If they CHOOSE to do what their family demands of them while they are in a free country that offers them protection from violence, then that is their choice. Just like an abused woman who continues going back to her abuser despite the police trying to help her. It's HER CHOICE.

And it should remain HER CHOICE.


This seems like an odd statement coming from someone who said that we only wear clothes because "we're a bunch of prudes".
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Yeah, because our prudish government thinks that nipples are evil
 
Gardener said:
What a stupid, ignorant position to take.
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I know! Thinking that you're actually promoting women's freedom while taking away their choice IS a stupid, ignorant position to take. Not to mention sexist, condescending, and misogynistic.
 
rivrrat said:
I know! Thinking that you're actually promoting women's freedom while taking away their choice IS a stupid, ignorant position to take. Not to mention sexist, condescending, and misogynistic.
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Yeah, you've said that. It was just as moronic and ignorant then as it is now.

I imagine you probably think it's just like the S & M you say you enjoy where the women involved are just getting their sexual jollies out of it like you do. Unlike your little fantasy S & M lifestyle, however, there are no safe words for these women, as so many face serious abuse if they do not comply.

Let us know next time any of your S & M sex partners slice your mouth open to teach you a lesson about disobeying, or when you are gang raped to within an inch of your life, o.k.? Until then, I suggest you learn the difference between your sexual fetishes and real life.
 
Gardener said:
Yeah, you've said that. It was just as moronic and ignorant then as it is now.

I imagine you probably think it's just like the S & M you say you enjoy where the women involved are just getting their sexual jollies out of it like you do. Unlike your little fantasy S & M lifestyle, however, there are no safe words for these women, as so many face serious abuse if they do not comply.

Let us know next time any of your S & M sex partners slice your mouth open to teach you a lesson about disobeying, or when you are gang raped to within an inch of your life, o.k.? Until then, I suggest you learn the difference between your sexual fetishes and real life.
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Oh give me a ****ing break. They live in western societies with governments that will protect them. If someone did abuse me, I'd have them arrested. If I didn't have them arrested and instead continued to 'obey' them and suffer abuse, well... that would be my choice.

Aside from that fact, there are many thousands of women who want to wear the burqa for religious reasons, that is also their choice. I wanted to wear something quite similar while in India, and it wasn't even for religious reasons! You wish to remove that choice from all women but disguise your condescending, sexist attitude inside of some shining white knight bull****. Get over yourself. You don't advance women's rights by taking them away.
 
Gardener said:
there are no safe words for these women, as so many face serious abuse if they do not comply.

partners slice your mouth open to teach you a lesson about disobeying, or when you are gang raped to within an inch of your life
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I edited out your unnecessary jabs at rivrrat and would like to ask you this: How would a law banning niqabs and burqas fix any of these terrible and very real problems you speak of? How is fining these women (the victims of this abuse) over a 1000 dollars a pop ever going to help them in any way shape or form?

None of this will help anyone other than a handful of short-sighted politicans. Don't you see that? There has to be another way to help liberate these women from the oppression they live with. Forcing them into western style clothes is not going to change the way their husbands, fathers, brothers see them. It will not reduce the amount of violence they endure. It may even make their situation worse.

Attacking the symbol will accomplish NOTHING.
 
rivrrat said:
Oh give me a ****ing break. They live in western societies with governments that will protect them. If someone did abuse me, I'd have them arrested. If I didn't have them arrested and instead continued to 'obey' them and suffer abuse, well... that would be my choice.

Aside from that fact, there are many thousands of women who want to wear the burqa for religious reasons, that is also their choice. I wanted to wear something quite similar while in India, and it wasn't even for religious reasons! You wish to remove that choice from all women but disguise your condescending, sexist attitude inside of some shining white knight bull****. Get over yourself. You don't advance women's rights by taking them away.
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You know absolutely nothing about the lives these women lead, and so are afforded your preconceptions because you live such a pampered life, you just can't image anybody else living any other way.


I would suggest people in this thread learn a little something about the status of Muslim women living in the projects by investigating this group

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni_Putes_Ni_Soumises]Ni Putes Ni Soumises - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

They are real feminists.
 
Arcana XV said:
I edited out your unnecessary jabs at rivrrat and would like to ask you this: How would a law banning niqabs and burqas fix any of these terrible and very real problems you speak of? How is fining these women (the victims of this abuse) over a 1000 dollars a pop ever going to help them in any way shape or form?

None of this will help anyone other than a handful of short-sighted politicans. Don't you see that? There has to be another way to help liberate these women from the oppression they live with. Forcing them into western style clothes is not going to change the way their husbands, fathers, brothers see them. It will not reduce the amount of violence they endure. It may even make their situation worse.

Attacking the symbol will accomplish NOTHING.
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and what of Riverrat's unrelenting Jabs at me, eh? Her initial post to me was extremely hostile, and was nothing more than a personal attack.

As far as the adoption of western style dress, I see this as symbolic, but agree with you that MUCH more needs to be done. For starters, the French police should be much more active in the projects, the prosecution of rapists needs to be more aggressive, the punishments need to be more severe, and there needs to be a nationwide effort geared towards assimilation. I see the elimination of this symbol that a human being is chattel to be one small step in that particular direction.
 
Gardener said:
You know absolutely nothing about the lives these women lead, and so are afforded your preconceptions because you live such a pampered life, you just can't image anybody else living any other way.
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Oh please, oh knowledgeable one, please enlighten me as to what my "preconceptions" are. Because, as a western MAN, I'm sure you know so much more than any of the rest of us what I and everyone else know and think.
 
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rivrrat said:
They live in western societies with governments that will protect them.
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The fact that you seriously believe this statement is what, above all, shows that you are not aware of the way the Islamic communities handle, even in a Western state.

That is why your position is based on ignorance while Gardener's is based on the knowledge of what will happen to many of the women who will dare to disobey their society's codes.

If I would have gone down to your level, I would say that you only believe you are promoting women freedom while you're actually promoting their murder by the honor killing code.
 
Apocalypse said:
The fact that you seriously believe this statement is what, above all, shows that you are not aware of the way the Islamic communities handle, even in a Western state.
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You're implying that our government wouldn't protect them because they're Muslim?

That is why your position is based on ignorance while Gardener's is based on the knowledge of what will happen to many of the women who will dare to disobey their society's codes.
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No, his position is based on sexism, arrogance, and misogyny.


If I would have gone down to your level, I would say that you only believe you are promoting women freedom while you're actually promoting their murder by the honor killing code.
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Yeah, I'd love to see the mental gymnastics on that one.
 
rivrrat said:
You're implying that our government wouldn't protect them because they're Muslim?
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No, read again.
I am implying that those things happen in Western nations' Islamic communities too, way more fluently than you seem to realize.
No, his position is based on sexism, arrogance, and misogyny.
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That's your opinion.
From my point of view his position is based on the knowledge of the code-breaking woman's fate.
Yeah, I'd love to see the mental gymnastics on that one.
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I'm sure you would, like Rush Limbaugh would love seeing Barack Obama get re-elected.
 
rivrrat said:
Oh please, oh knowledgeable one, please enlighten me as to what my "preconceptions" are.
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Well, for starters, that Muslim women living in ghettos are just like you.


rivrrat said:
Because, as a western MAN, I'm sure you know so much more than any of the rest of us what I and everyone else know and think.
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I will simply highlight this one in such a way as to hope anybody with half a brain would realize who is being sexist here.
 
rivrrat said:
No, his position is based on sexism, arrogance, and misogyny.
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It is only because yours is based upon pure ignorance that you would attempt this sort of turnspeak.
 
Gardener said:
and what of Riverrat's unrelenting Jabs at me, eh? Her initial post to me was extremely hostile, and was nothing more than a personal attack.
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I would edit that out as well were I to quote the relevant posts.

As far as the adoption of western style dress, I see this as symbolic, but agree with you that MUCH more needs to be done. For starters, the French police should be much more active in the projects, the prosecution of rapists needs to be more aggressive, the punishments need to be more severe, and there needs to be a nationwide effort geared towards assimilation. I see the elimination of this symbol that a human being is chattel to be one small step in that particular direction.
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That's the problem, tho. It's just symbolic. It makes you feel better, but it won't make the women who actually want to wear these Islamic traditional clothes feel anything other than regret that it had to go this far. They want the violence against them to stop, they may even want to stop covering their faces given the choice. But many of them would still chose some form of Islamic dress, as is evident by the choice many liberated, highly educated French Muslim women make to wear hijab every day.

I agree with you about police needing to be tougher and more present in certain neighborhoods. There are parts of certain suburbs that might as well not be called France anymore, where Islamic fundamentalist thugs are allowed to terrorize everyone around them, because no cop ever goes there anymore. And I'm really glad you posted about Ni Putes ni Soumises. They are a very good organization that really tries to get to the root of the problems. I've been donating to them for years. I wish there more like them.
 
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Arcana XV said:
I would edit that out as well were I to quote the relevant posts.



That's the problem, tho. It's just symbolic. It makes you feel better, but it won't make the women who actually want to wear these Islamic traditional clothes feel anything other than regret that it had to go this far. They want the violence against them to stop, they may even want to stop covering their faces given the choice. But many of them would still chose some form of Islamic dress, as is evident by the choice many liberated, highly educated French Muslim women make to wear hijab every day.

I agree with you about police needing to be tougher and more present in certain neighborhoods. There are parts of certain suburbs that might as well not be called France anymore, where Islamic fundamentalist thugs are allowed to terrorize everyone around them, because no cop ever goes there anymore. Athat really tries to get to the root of the problems. I've been donating to them for years. I wish there more like them.
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Ultimately, it is only symbolic if nothing else is done. If it is part of a package of actions all geared towards the same end, then it is a useful tool.
 
Apocalypse said:
No, read again.
I am implying that those things happen in Western nations' Islamic communities too, way more fluently than you seem to realize.
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And those things happen to non-Islamic women too. Women get beaten, raped and murdered all over the country every day. We don't force them to stay inside because of it. We don't take away their rights because of possible violence enacted against them. We actually go for the source.

That's your opinion.
From my point of view his position is based on the knowledge of the code-breaking woman's fate.
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And what the hell makes you think I'm not "aware" of how such families operate? That I'm not "aware", intimately, of what can happen to women who are in abusive relationships or the threat of them such as some Muslim women are in? The fact that SOME Muslim women live under threat of violence is no cause for limiting some of THEIR RIGHTS and the rights of all other women in the world. Are you really under the delusion that the violence will stop because they're not afforded the legal choice to wear a certain outfit any longer? Seriously? You really think it's that ****ing simple? Take away someone's rights and it makes it all better?

Jesus ****ing christ. You may as well make it a law that all women can't go out past dark because they might get hurt. Or hell, don't allow them to marry at all because god knows they might choose a violent husband. We can't let them make a choice, they might make the wrong one.

It's ****ing retarded. And insulting to ALL women. The attitude that some of you guys have regarding women being able to choose for themselves, even if it's not the damn choice YOU would make is astounding. It's amazing to me just how sexist so many men still are today.
 
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