View Poll Results: Burqa ban+fine, example to follow or shy

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  • This law should be completely implemented in the West

    9 18.00%
  • This law is a must in general

    1 2.00%
  • This law is good

    4 8.00%
  • The law is not good

    29 58.00%
  • Other opinion(explain).

    7 14.00%
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Thread: French law could see fines for burqas

  1. #201
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Honor killing is a recognized term, and is identified with Islam.
    Here, let me fix that:

    Honor killing is a recognized term, and is inaccurately identified with Islam, seeing as how it happens in lots of cases where Islam isn't a factor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Indeed, and that is why we choose to prefer the woman's safety and freedom over the woman's pleasure from wearing a blanket.

    How dramatic must it be for a woman to be told not to wear a certain blanket.
    I do not know how would I carry on with life.
    Can you explain to me, please, how taking someone's freedom away is choosing their freedom?

    At any rate, this rather absurd argument could be used to justify the stripping of any of a number of different civil liberties. The important point isn't how little damage you think you're doing by taking a freedom away, the important point is how much actual damage a person is doing to those around them when they exercise that freedom.

    Would you care to quantify the damage done by women in Burkas to people around them simply by wearing the Burka?
    Last edited by TacticalEvilDan; 01-16-10 at 02:23 PM.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  2. #202
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    And that is why I am against banning or fining them.
    Right on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    But that does not mean that the women who are forced to wear it don't exist
    I agree, and any such assertion is silly.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  3. #203
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Why don't you attempt to explain how it ISNT sexist.


    Yup, you attempted to explain how you perceived any choice to have a negative impact on their life. You FEEL that any choice has a negative outcome. Why don't you let women decide that for themselves. There are many thousands who would disagree with you. Oh wait... they're just screwed up in the head, right? I mean, no woman in their right mind would go against what you think is best for them, right? No woman in her right mind would dare think differently than you, correct?


    Yes, it is. You can't let them choose for themselves, as the all powerful man, you must make the choice for them. Because you know what's best for them better than they do, I'm sure.


    Indeed, but those are all topics for another conversation.


    I understand completely. It would seem that you are the one who is lacking clarity.
    Should have taken Gardener's way and ignored you from the start.
    I would simply not spend my time any longer on a person who is not able to go beyond baseless personal accusations.

    I hope you're satisfied with the way you've been handling this argument.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

  4. #204
    free market communist
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    I find it hilarious that you honestly believe I'm motivated by Sexism.

    If I'm your version of a Sexist, then it doesn't seem like you know a thing about Sexism.
    When the same sorts of conversations were held 150 years ago in regards to slavery, those who wished to continue slavery often pointed out the (supposedly) happy house slaves who expressed contentment with their lot.

    I wonder if those who were opposed to slavery back then also had to face an onslaught by stupid reactionaries that it was their desire to end slavery that was actually racist?
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  5. #205
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    And by then it's too late. The damage is done. It's the threat of abuse that keeps the women obedient, not the abuse itself. Besides, do you really think that criminals are always caught by the police? Or that women are always willing to get their family put in jail, no matter how abusive?
    No, criminals are not always caught, frequently because victims CHOOSE not to press charges or help the police. Yes. CHOOSE.

    Women aren't always willing to put their family in jail? Willing implies choice, does it not? That is their CHOICE.

    A woman who has a multitude of resources to get out of an abusive relationship but yet keeps going back and going back makes the CHOICE to do so. Yes. The choice.

    You're the one being insensitive towards these women here, not the people you're arguing against. Stop telling them that the horrible conditions they're forced to suffer through is "their choice", as if life is always that simple. It's a bit sickening, really.
    It is their choice if they choose to remain there. It is their choice if they don't take advantage of the numerous opportunities (namely, the ****ing police) to get out of an abusive relationship. When ****ing cop comes to the door and the woman remains silent, that is HER CHOICE. I agree, it is sickening that so many women - Muslim and non-Muslim - willingly choose to remain in abusive situations when there are countless people ready, willing, and able to get them and keep them safe. Yes, it IS sickening.

    If they are being kept under lock and key, then that's a different matter. But then, banning the burqa isn't going to do jack **** to help them because the least of their worries is what piece of cloth is on their bodies.

    You are totally missing the point here, which is that illegal things happen, so claiming that women can't be oppressed by something that isn't the government in a Western country is inaccurate, not to mention insensitive.
    Yeah sure. Women who drive past shelters and police stations and instead head right back into the arms of the very person abusing them doesn't happen, right? Like I said, if someone is being kept under lock and key where they are unable to speak to or see another person, then of course it's not their choice. But, if they are out on the street, walking past cops, and thousands of other people, and they head right on back to the abuse, then yes... it IS their choice. In the western world.


    He said that if women say that they want to wear such clothing, then they probably suffer Stockholm Syndrome (which he never said that men couldn't develop). He never said anything about the women having a choice; he simply said that they had been psychologically conditioned to prefer the only option which they had been given.
    Which is utter bull****.


    You also apparently disrespect imaginary misogyny and sexism.
    No, just the blatant and obvious.

  6. #206
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Well, that's the thing. I don't think this should be included in the package. On the one hand you have a Muslim community that imposes all sorts of demands on their women and in order to liberate them from that we want to add more stress into their lives by forbidding them to dress a certain way. I don't see how that makes any sense.
    By leveling the playing field, you are taking away one excuse for attacking them. It won't end the attacks, certainly, but it will take away one of the superficial reasons for doing so supported by the wider community.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  7. #207
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    When the same sorts of conversations were held 150 years ago in regards to slavery, those who wished to continue slavery often pointed out the (supposedly) happy house slaves who expressed contentment with their lot.

    I wonder if those who were opposed to slavery back then also had to face an onslaught by stupid reactionaries that it was their desire to end slavery that was actually racist?
    The problem with your argument is that since we have no way of addressing the particulars of what goes on behind closed doors with respect to Burkas (absent some sort of an official complaint, charges, or surveillance footage, of course), you can't prove who is a slave and who is being paid to pick the cotton.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  8. #208
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Here, let me fix that:
    Here, let me fix that:
    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Here, let me make an infantile, failing attempt at making a point that is inherently false, while proving everyone and their grandma that I am unable of contradicting an opposing statement:
    Can you explain to me, please, how taking someone's freedom away is choosing their freedom?
    Nobody's freedom is being taken away, certainly not by banning a certain and very specific clothing.
    At any rate, this rather absurd argument could be used to justify the stripping of any of a number of different civil liberties.
    How so?
    The important point isn't how little damage you think you're doing by taking a freedom away, the important point is how much actual damage a person is doing to those around them when they exercise that freedom.

    Would you care to quantify the damage done by women in Burkas to people around them simply by wearing the Burka?
    Where did I speak on a damage to people surrounding the burqa-wearing woman?
    What in heavens are you talking about?
    Did you even bother reading the arguments, or did you simply automatically decided to side yourself with the blankets?
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

  9. #209
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    I hope you're satisfied with the way you've been handling this argument.
    Of course I am. If I weren't, I wouldn't do it.

    I hope you're satisfied keeping such sexist attitudes toward women. The sad thing is, they are the WORST kind of sexist attitudes. Because you actually think you're doing women a favor. It is, to say the least, sad.

  10. #210
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    I'm going to guess that you live in the United States, based upon your signature, since you didn't fill out your location information. If you live somewhere where that sort of thing is acceptable behavior, then I guess you can feel free to ignore what follows.

    That aside, shame on you. That kind of high school bullying is contrary to every basic principle of freedom espoused by the United States, as outlined in the Tenth Amendment -- my freedoms stop where your nose starts.

    Nobody's telling you to wear a Burka, and someone else's Burka doesn't curtail your freedoms or safety any more than a full-length duster, a baggy jacket, or a backpack do.
    Cry me a river.

    Actually, it fits perfectly with one of the most basic and fundamental principles of freedom ever conceived. Ever heard of free speech???
    "Muslims are OBLIGATED to raid the lands of the infidels, occupy them, and exchange their systems of governance for an Islamic system. . .They say that our sharia does not impose our particular beliefs upon others; this is a false assertion. For it is, in fact, part of our religion to IMPOSE our particular beliefs upon others." -bin Laden

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