View Poll Results: Burqa ban+fine, example to follow or shy

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  • This law should be completely implemented in the West

    9 18.00%
  • This law is a must in general

    1 2.00%
  • This law is good

    4 8.00%
  • The law is not good

    29 58.00%
  • Other opinion(explain).

    7 14.00%
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Thread: French law could see fines for burqas

  1. #191
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    And hell, Gardner flat out said they weren't mentally competent to make the choice themselves.
    No, he said that many of them suffer Stockholm Syndrome. He never said that only women are capable of such a condition.


    Keep in mind that I do not support banning or fining burqas. I just, unlike you, respect the opinion of those who do.

  2. #192
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for most of those actually wearing one.
    Actually, nobody can swear to what percentage of women who are wearing one are being forced to do so.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  3. #193
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    That is not only wrong, but horribly offensive to the many women who live under the oppressive thumb of their families and are being told that they are only living that way because "it's their choice". The threat of physical, emotional, or sexual violence is enough to keep these women under the veil... and the people who would perform such acts of violence, don't give a sh*t whether or not the government is okay with it.
    THey don't have to give a **** about the government. That is, until the cops come and drag them off to jail. Then they can sit in jail and not give a **** there.

    Do you really think that honor killings and the like don't happen in Western countries? Because they do.
    Of course they do. Just like any number of other murders. And? Should we lock women inside and not allow them out because they might be hurt? HOw many other choices should we remove from women so that they don't make the 'wrong' ones?


    This seems to me kind of like saying that an anti-Obama position is based on racism.
    Sometimes it is


    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    No, he said that many of them suffer Stockholm Syndrome. He never said that only women are capable of such a condition.
    It's women we're talking about. He said that if women chose to wear such clothing, that they were just ****ed in the head. So obviously, they can't be allowed to make such a choice, right?

    Keep in mind that I do not support banning or fining burqas. I just, unlike you, respect the opinion of those who do.
    Feel free to respect whatever you want. I don't respect people's opinions just because they have them. And I most certainly do not respect sexism, condescending attitudes, insulting opinions, or misogyny. You feel free to do so though. And I'll feel free not to respect your respect of their opinions.

  4. #194
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    If this:



    isn't sexist, I don't know what is.
    Then go and read a book or something instead of randomly accusing posters of terms that are unknown to you.
    You want to 'save' women from a possible negative consequence of a choice by removing their ability to make a choice. And hell, Gardner flat out said they weren't mentally competent to make the choice themselves.

    How can what you guys are saying be construed as anything BUT sexist? Women can't make the choice themselves, they might make the wrong one and experience a "negative consequence". Women can't make the choice themselves because if they choose to wear a burqa, then they're mentally ****ed in the head anyway. We must 'protect' women from their own choices.
    In my posts I was quite clear that there is no wrong choice, and that every choice they'd make would have some form of a negative impact on their lives, to the level of being murdered.

    Hence, I proposed that by taking the choice away from them, AKA, by banning the burqa, they would not have to face those negative consequences.
    How chauvinistic of me, eh?
    How are those attitudes anything BUT sexist?
    I don't know, really.
    How are they not racist, too.
    After all, most of the said women probably belong to the Arab race, no?
    Perhaps it's also Islamophobic to look for the safety of the Muslim women that live in Islamic communities?
    Might as well consider me a socialist for promoting the state's involvement in the individuals' life, no?
    They're condescending AND sexist. They are the epitome of a sexist attitude. One entire gender can't be allowed to make a choice because they might make the wrong one and they might experience "negative consequences" so you almighty men MUST make the choice for us. Gimme a break. You're treating ALL women like ****ing children and claiming some moral high ground in the process. It's ridiculous.

    And I'm honestly astounded that an otherwise intelligent individual is incapable of seeing it.
    Do not consider the possibility that you yourself are incapable of seeing what you do not seem to understand, it would only slow you down in your anti-'Sexism' crusade.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

  5. #195
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Do you really think that honor killings and the like don't happen in Western countries? Because they do.
    Of course they do, just as lots of honor killings which have nothing to do with Islam or Sharia law happen all over the world.

    So what? You can't differentiate between the women who are forced to wear a Burka and those who wear it because they choose to.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  6. #196
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Of course they do, just as lots of honor killings which have nothing to do with Islam or Sharia law happen all over the world.
    Honor killing is a recognized term, and is identified with Islam.
    So what? You can't differentiate between the women who are forced to wear a Burka and those who wear it because they choose to.
    Indeed, and that is why we choose to prefer the woman's safety and freedom over the woman's pleasure from wearing a blanket.

    How dramatic must it be for a woman to be told not to wear a certain blanket.
    I do not know how would I carry on with life.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

  7. #197
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Then go and read a book or something instead of randomly accusing posters of terms that are unknown to you.
    Why don't you attempt to explain how it ISNT sexist.

    In my posts I was quite clear that there is no wrong choice, and that every choice they'd make would have some form of a negative impact on their lives, to the level of being murdered.
    Yup, you attempted to explain how you perceived any choice to have a negative impact on their life. You FEEL that any choice has a negative outcome. Why don't you let women decide that for themselves. There are many thousands who would disagree with you. Oh wait... they're just screwed up in the head, right? I mean, no woman in their right mind would go against what you think is best for them, right? No woman in her right mind would dare think differently than you, correct?

    Hence, I proposed that by taking the choice away from them, AKA, by banning the burqa, they would not have to face those negative consequences.
    How chauvinistic of me, eh?
    Yes, it is. You can't let them choose for themselves, as the all powerful man, you must make the choice for them. Because you know what's best for them better than they do, I'm sure.

    I don't know, really.
    How are they not racist, too.
    After all, most of the said women probably belong to the Arab race, no?
    Perhaps it's also Islamophobic to look for the safety of the Muslim women that live in Islamic communities?
    Might as well consider me a socialist for promoting the state's involvement in the individuals' life, no?
    Indeed, but those are all topics for another conversation.

    Do not consider the possibility that you yourself are incapable of seeing what you do not seem to understand, it would only slow you down in your anti-'Sexism' crusade.
    I understand completely. It would seem that you are the one who is lacking clarity.

  8. #198
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    THey don't have to give a **** about the government. That is, until the cops come and drag them off to jail. Then they can sit in jail and not give a **** there.
    And by then it's too late. The damage is done. It's the threat of abuse that keeps the women obedient, not the abuse itself. Besides, do you really think that criminals are always caught by the police? Or that women are always willing to get their family put in jail, no matter how abusive?

    You're the one being insensitive towards these women here, not the people you're arguing against. Stop telling them that the horrible conditions they're forced to suffer through is "their choice", as if life is always that simple. It's a bit sickening, really.


    Of course they do. Just like any number of other murders. And? Should we lock women inside and not allow them out because they might be hurt? HOw many other choices should we remove from women so that they don't make the 'wrong' ones?
    You are totally missing the point here, which is that illegal things happen, so claiming that women can't be oppressed by something that isn't the government in a Western country is inaccurate, not to mention insensitive.

    Sometimes it is
    And usually it's not. But automatically assuming that everyone against Obama is a racist is a completely dishonest debate tactic. The same idea is basically true here.

    It's women we're talking about. He said that if women chose to wear such clothing, that they were just ****ed in the head. So obviously, they can't be allowed to make such a choice, right?
    He said that if women say that they want to wear such clothing, then they probably suffer Stockholm Syndrome (which he never said that men couldn't develop). He never said anything about the women having a choice; he simply said that they had been psychologically conditioned to prefer the only option which they had been given.

    Feel free to respect whatever you want. I don't respect people's opinions just because they have them. And I most certainly do not respect sexism, condescending attitudes, insulting opinions, or misogyny. You feel free to do so though. And I'll feel free not to respect your respect of their opinions.
    You also apparently disrespect imaginary misogyny and sexism.

  9. #199
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Ultimately, it is only symbolic if nothing else is done. If it is part of a package of actions all geared towards the same end, then it is a useful tool.
    Well, that's the thing. I don't think this should be included in the package. On the one hand you have a Muslim community that imposes all sorts of demands on their women and in order to liberate them from that we want to add more stress into their lives by forbidding them to dress a certain way. I don't see how that makes any sense.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

  10. #200
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    So what? You can't differentiate between the women who are forced to wear a Burka and those who wear it because they choose to.
    And that is why I am against banning or fining them.

    But that does not mean that the women who are forced to wear it don't exist, which is basically rivrrat's argument.

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