View Poll Results: Burqa ban+fine, example to follow or shy

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  • This law should be completely implemented in the West

    9 18.00%
  • This law is a must in general

    1 2.00%
  • This law is good

    4 8.00%
  • The law is not good

    29 58.00%
  • Other opinion(explain).

    7 14.00%
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Thread: French law could see fines for burqas

  1. #111
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Women should strip to their thongs in train stations - just in case.
    No, no, thongs can be used to hide things too, so they have to go as well!
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  2. #112
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    French law could see fines for burqas
    A law that should never be implemented in a free society.

    Whatever happened to "Liberté, égalité, fraternité"???
    "Muslims are OBLIGATED to raid the lands of the infidels, occupy them, and exchange their systems of governance for an Islamic system. . .They say that our sharia does not impose our particular beliefs upon others; this is a false assertion. For it is, in fact, part of our religion to IMPOSE our particular beliefs upon others." -bin Laden

  3. #113
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I'd rather not wear a suit, but my society tells me I have to.
    The "second one" I referred to was my question about whether your suit is a tool of oppression of the sex that has to wear it.

    What if they WANT to be one cold, expressionless tent of a million?
    The only reason any woman would want to be dehumanized would be if they have been brainwashed to believe that they are sub-humans whose sole purpose in life is to serve their husband, which is pretty sad in itself. Anyways, I doubt that a majority of women currently under the burqa would continue doing so if one day her husband/family announced that he would be fine with her keeping it off.
    I'm sure that there's a bunch of people living under oppressive, brutal dictatorships who are just fine with that... but that doesn't exactly make it right.

    Not everyone in the world cares as much about individualism as most Americans. There are people in THIS country that prefer to blend in instead of stand out (e.g. The Amish). Should their clothing be outlawed as well?
    Do the Amish women have to cover their entire body, including their face, at all times in public? No? That's what I thought.

    I don't think anyone would suggest that women want to be honor-killed. The same cannot be said of the burqa.
    Not sure what you're trying to say here. Re-read my comment, and you'll see that what I was trying to get across is that sometimes it is a choice between one or the other.

  4. #114
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    The french prove time and again how pathetic their country is.

  5. #115
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    The only reason any woman would want to be dehumanized would be if they have been brainwashed to believe that they are sub-humans whose sole purpose in life is to serve their husband, which is pretty sad in itself.
    Wow, talk about dehumanizing - you assume they are brainwashed, without even letting them speak for themselves. You're the one with no respect for women.

    You need to actually listen to Muslim women. Some of them, believe it or not, are intelligent, educated, free, and choose to wear the thing.

    Here, this may help:

    We Love Islam, So we wear Burqa | Sa

    a lot of women in Europe, India and West Asia have found their cultural identity in the folds of this robe-like garment. They choose to wear it because it gives them a sense of comfort and religious belonging. They are not forced and simply choose to dress this way.

    Let me draw an analogy here to a garment accepted by more people as a necessity in women’s toilette – the bra. Germaine Greer and other feminists burned bras several decades ago, in defiance of patriarchal ideas of female beauty. They saw the bra as oppressive – a garment created to objectify women and turn them into sex objects in the imagination of men. A lot of women (the majority) still choose to wear a bra. Many of them are feminists. They too stand against patriarchy but might choose to do so in a bra. They don’t see it as a patriarchal instrument but only as a means to support their breasts. Sure, there are still ridiculously stuffed, padded bras around and a lot of women around the world are subjected to ridicule and judged by size of their breasts. Inflatable and padded bras are marketed to these women with the convoluted objective of making them look like they have big busts too. But then, would we ban the bra? I don’t think so.

    Further, there’s the stereotyping – women in conservative clothes must be powerless, docile and submissive while those in modern, non-traditional clothing must be outgoing, risqué and rebellious. Consider this – the French president sees the “modern”, fashionably dressed woman as the positive image, as he connects this with progress, freedom and empowerment. Hence, he chooses to speak of banning the burqa, as he sees it as the very anti-thesis of his country’s values. In Sudan, docility, modesty and traditional clothing are considered valuable. Hence their opposite – trousers, in this case – is seen as harmful to the fabric of society. In both cases, the woman’s choice in the matter is discounted, disappearing in the assumptions made about her image as “empowered” or “decent”.

    Sofie Ashraf, a young musician who raps while wearing a burqa is the perfect example why these stereotypes often do not apply. She is bold, performs with a band onstage, raps about why she loves Islam, and is anything but docile. She says in one of her songs, “Gimme back my faith/ Don’t hijack my faith / Don’t hate me for an idiot’s mistake.” That somehow seems to sum it up. Sofie herself likens her choice of wearing the burqa to a groupie’s wearing a band t-shirt. “We love Islam, so we wear burqa.” she says, and adds that it comes with a responsibility.

    What is also ignored is the fact that the real problem where the burqa is concerned is the sexual, physical and emotional violence perpetrated against women who make the choice not to wear the burqa, as well as the fact that a large number of women are forced into the veil. Rather than banning the garment itself, what governments should be focussing on is nabbing the abusers, molesters and thugs, who would deprive women of their freedom to choose.

    Women who choose to wear the burqa are choosing to belong – not to feel alienated.

  6. #116
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    ^That woman basically makes the same point I do:

    What is also ignored is the fact that the real problem where the burqa is concerned is the sexual, physical and emotional violence perpetrated against women who make the choice not to wear the burqa, as well as the fact that a large number of women are forced into the veil. Rather than banning the garment itself, what governments should be focussing on is nabbing the abusers, molesters and thugs, who would deprive women of their freedom to choose.

    I do not deny the existence of women who wear burqas who niether are forced to wear it nor consider themselves sub-human; I just think they are a very small portion of those who wear burqas. Also, the assertion that "We love Islam, so we wear Burqa" is odd, considering that the Burqa isn't exactly part of Islam; a lot of Muslim countries do not have many women who wear it. I also have no idea where she was going with that comparison to the bra.

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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Wow, talk about dehumanizing - you assume they are brainwashed, without even letting them speak for themselves. You're the one with no respect for women.

    You need to actually listen to Muslim women. Some of them, believe it or not, are intelligent, educated, free, and choose to wear the thing.

    Here, this may help:

    We Love Islam, So we wear Burqa | Sa
    Female victims of domestic violence also return time after time to those that beat them and they frequently refuse to press charges and even defend them.
    "Muslims are OBLIGATED to raid the lands of the infidels, occupy them, and exchange their systems of governance for an Islamic system. . .They say that our sharia does not impose our particular beliefs upon others; this is a false assertion. For it is, in fact, part of our religion to IMPOSE our particular beliefs upon others." -bin Laden

  8. #118
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    The french prove time and again how pathetic their country is.
    You're actually going to hold the French people responsible for an action taken by the French government?
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  9. #119
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Women who choose to wear the burqa are choosing to belong – not to feel alienated.
    A few passages in a book about life in Afghanistan speaks to this and the mentality and mindset cultivated in women with respect to wearing the burka and participating in society without being made to feel alienated or like an outcast.
    “Burka women are like horses with blinkers: they can look only in one direction. Where the eye narrows, the grille stops and a thick layer of material takes its place; impossible to glance sideways. The whole head must turn; another trick by the burka inventor: a man must know what his wife is looking at.” P. 85


    “Awful, there were boys in the class!”
    The others stared open-mouthed. “That’s no good,” says here mother. “You mustn’t go back again.”
    Leila would not dream of ever going back. The Taliban may have disappeared but they are still present in Leila’s head, and in Bib Gul’s and Sharifa’s and in Sonya’s. The women in Mikrorayon are glad the Taliban era is over, they can play music, they can dance, paint their toe nails—as long as no one sees them and they can hide under the safe burka. Leila is a true child of the civil war, the mullah reign, and the Taliban. A child of fear. She cries inside. The attempt to break away, to do something independent, to learn something, has failed. During five years of Taliban reign girl’s education had been forbidden. Now it is allowed, but she forbids herself.” P.183-4

    ”No one asked Leila and Leila would not have answered. A well behaved girl does not answer questions about whether she likes so-and-so or not.” P. 189

    “Leila is at a standstill; a standstill in the mud of society and the dust of tradition. She has reached a deadlock in a system that is rooted in centuries-old traditions and that paralyzes half the population. The Ministry of Education is a half-hour bus ride away, an impossible half hour. Leila is not used to fighting for something—on the contrary she is used to giving up.” p. 193

    From Asne Seierstad'a The Bookseller of Kabul.
    Last edited by ScummyD; 01-15-10 at 05:08 PM.
    "Muslims are OBLIGATED to raid the lands of the infidels, occupy them, and exchange their systems of governance for an Islamic system. . .They say that our sharia does not impose our particular beliefs upon others; this is a false assertion. For it is, in fact, part of our religion to IMPOSE our particular beliefs upon others." -bin Laden

  10. #120
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    Re: French law could see fines for burqas

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    I do not deny the existence of women who wear burqas who niether are forced to wear it nor consider themselves sub-human;
    You sure sounded like you did.

    I just think they are a very small portion of those who wear burqas.
    Maybe. But you don't know what portion, and you don't know which are which.

    Also, the assertion that "We love Islam, so we wear Burqa" is odd, considering that the Burqa isn't exactly part of Islam; a lot of Muslim countries do not have many women who wear it.
    Of course it's a part of Islam. No religion is monolithic. They simply interpret a part of the Koran differently than others. Happens in all religions. I don't read the Koran to require burqas either, but I wouldn't say it's "not part of Islam" even if I were a Muslim myself.

    I also have no idea where she was going with that comparison to the bra.
    Read it again then. The bra was once viewed as oppressive by some women, but that doesn't mean we should ban it. Just let women choose.

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