View Poll Results: Since reading or participating in the abortion threads

Voters
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  • My views have changed to completely against abortion

    2 4.08%
  • My views have change to slightly more against abortion

    6 12.24%
  • My views have not changed at all on abortion

    35 71.43%
  • My views have changed to slightly more in favor of abortion

    2 4.08%
  • My views have changes to completely in favor of abortion

    4 8.16%
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Thread: Why are you here?

  1. #91
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    Re: Why are you here?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    When you can show that black people or women don't have a functioning and attached cerebral cortex, then you can use that slippery slope. And, I'd agree with you that they wouldn't be worth protection.
    Who's to say what constitutes as a "functioning" cerebral cortex? Kids don't have functioning brains on the same level of adults - can I kill them? What about mentally retarded people? Or people with low IQs in general? Face it: what is and isn't a "person" is completely a matter of personal opinion... and it is something that the government must define if it wishes to protect those persons' rights.

    As for "attached" - this happens well before a fetus is actually born.

    Not at all. I do not wish to force my opinion on anyone. You're perfectly free to think a fetus, or a cockroach, or a potato, or a gnat, or a cow are ALL persons. I'm not going to stop you, nor am I trying to. Just don't try and stop me from killing roaches in my house, or swatting flies, or eating meat and it's all good.
    As I have already explained, this goes both ways in deciding what is and isn't a person.

  2. #92
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    Re: Why are you here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Who's to say what constitutes as a "functioning" cerebral cortex? Kids don't have functioning brains on the same level of adults - can I kill them? What about mentally retarded people? Or people with low IQs in general? Face it: what is and isn't a "person" is completely a matter of personal opinion... and it is something that the government must define if it wishes to protect those persons' rights.

    As for "attached" - this happens well before a fetus is actually born.
    Additionally, many persons believe in aspects of life which have yet to be scientifically proven (read: A soul, or something equivalent).

    Thus, no matter when a future human can be scientifically determined to have all their various essential parts in place, many would consider the termination of such to be immoral.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  3. #93
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    Re: Why are you here?

    Such things are medically determined to be established at or around the 24th week of gestation.
    Don't work out, work in.

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  4. #94
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    Re: Why are you here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Who's to say what constitutes as a "functioning" cerebral cortex?
    Functioning, as in 'working'. As in, 'sending electrical impulses'. As in, allowing higher thought processes. If it's not attached to the brain, it can't be functioning and said creature cannot be thinking or in any way sentient.

    Kids don't have functioning brains on the same level of adults - can I kill them? What about mentally retarded people? Or people with low IQs in general?
    They all have a functioning and attached cerebral cortex

    As for "attached" - this happens well before a fetus is actually born.
    Yep, it happens at approximately week 20 - 22.

  5. #95
    Educating the Ignorant
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    Re: Why are you here?

    Abortion cheapens life. A million a year... a sad comment on society. It's not like we have any shortage on contraception.

    I used to be for it, adamantly, vehemently, aggressively... as with most socialist drivel, but now against it as a form of birth control, and virtually everything supported by the Socialists... aka Democrats.

    I grew up.
    What's your excuse?

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  6. #96
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    Re: Why are you here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    In any case, murder is far more objective than "immoral killing". It's basically all killing except for certain specific exceptions, such as self-defense and war. Abortion does not fit any of these exceptions.
    No, "murder" is the act of intentional, unlawful killing of a person, it's not a blanket "objective" term to cover all killing, the word for this is, obviously, "killing".
    "REGRETTABLE NECESSITY, n. An avoidable atrocity. The term is often employed by presidents and prime ministers when announcing bombings of civilian targets and invasions of small countries."
    óChaz Bufe

  7. #97
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    Re: Why are you here?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Functioning, as in 'working'. As in, 'sending electrical impulses'. As in, allowing higher thought processes. If it's not attached to the brain, it can't be functioning and said creature cannot be thinking or in any way sentient.
    And yet there is essentially zero difference in the brain of a fetus a minute before birth and a minute after. So by your definition of personhood, one of two things must be true:
    -You think that it should be okay to kill babies up to a certain age
    -You are against late-term abortion

    In any case, by your standards, whether or not someone is a person has nothing to do with their location- that is, whether they are inside or outside of a uterus.

    Of course, the definition of personhood you gave, relating to the cerebral cortex, is just your opinion. In my opinion, someone has to have light skin and a penis to be a person. By saying otherwise, and by forcing the government to accept your version rather than mine, you are imposing your views on me and denying me my right to kill women and blacks.

  8. #98
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    Re: Why are you here?

    It is a matter of practicality. No neural network, no cognition, no person. (not even white penis-owners, although that may be debatable)
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  9. #99
    Borg Commander roderic's Avatar
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    Re: Why are you here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    I'm not sure you read my post right. If you have the opinion that a fetus is a person, and you have the opinion that killing people (except for certain exceptions) should be illegal, then you think that killing a fetus should be illegal. Where's the break in that logic?
    I would have thought that's obvious: a fetus is not an autonomous being, it does not have sole domain over its body, but lives within a person who does: the mother.
    And pro-choicers want to force their opinion on everyone else too - that the fetus is not a person. The government can't take no stance on this; either abortion is murder, and the pro-lifers are right, or it is not, and the pro-choicers are right. So you can't really take this issue out of the government, as so many pro-choicers argue for.
    Pro-choicers want a degree of choice over how they reconcile the fact that they own their body with another being residing in it, this is being denied by anti-abortionists, whereas pro-choicers do not propose to limit the freedom of anti-abortionists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Who's to say what constitutes as a "functioning" cerebral cortex? Kids don't have functioning brains on the same level of adults - can I kill them? What about mentally retarded people? Or people with low IQs in general? Face it: what is and isn't a "person" is completely a matter of personal opinion... and it is something that the government must define if it wishes to protect those persons' rights.
    Biological criteria of development such as a functioning cerebral cortex describe the onset of sentience, or rudimentary consciousness characterised by the ability to perceive sensations.
    The question of when the human fetus develops the capacity for sentience is central to many contentious issues. The answer could and should influence attitudes toward IVF and embryo experimentation, abortion, and fetal and neonatal surgery. For the fetus to be described as sentient, the somatosensory pathways from the periphery to the primary somatosensory region of the cerebral cortex must be established and functional. Fetal behaviour is described and the development of the underlying anatomical substrate and the chemical and electrical pathways involved in the detection, transmission, and perception of somatosensory stimuli are reviewed.
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    As I have already explained, this goes both ways in deciding what is and isn't a person.
    Since we are considering abortion legislation, the legal definition of a person is pertinent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    And yet there is essentially zero difference in the brain of a fetus a minute before birth and a minute after. So by your definition of personhood, one of two things must be true:
    -You think that it should be okay to kill babies up to a certain age
    -You are against late-term abortion
    She has not defined "person", or have Imissed this post? But implied that sentience, i.e. a functioning cortex, is an essential criterium for personhood.
    This develops around week 25, your point is moot.
    In any case, by your standards, whether or not someone is a person has nothing to do with their location- that is, whether they are inside or outside of a uterus.
    Did she comment on this? In legal terms, a person has a recorded name, this happens shortly after birth.
    You'll have to find a different line of arguing.
    "REGRETTABLE NECESSITY, n. An avoidable atrocity. The term is often employed by presidents and prime ministers when announcing bombings of civilian targets and invasions of small countries."
    óChaz Bufe

  10. #100
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    Talking Re: Why are you here?

    Quote Originally Posted by roderic View Post

    Apparently, you don't get a cookie.
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    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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