View Poll Results: Is marriage a right?

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Thread: Is marriage a right?

  1. #61
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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    The problem is that there is a religious aspect to the idea of "marriage".

    Not so with drivers licenses...or at least not any religion I am aware of.
    Who cares? Modern-day marriage has nothing to do with religion. You can walk down all the aisles in all the churches you want, you're not married until you get the piece of paper from the state that says you are. Religious marriage is an *OPTIONAL ADDITION* to getting legally married, it is neither a requirement, nor does it even add anything to the legal document and status.

    This is yet another area where the religious think they have more power and influence than they really do.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Who cares? Modern-day marriage has nothing to do with religion. You can walk down all the aisles in all the churches you want, you're not married until you get the piece of paper from the state that says you are. Religious marriage is an *OPTIONAL ADDITION* to getting legally married, it is neither a requirement, nor does it even add anything to the legal document and status.

    This is yet another area where the religious think they have more power and influence than they really do.
    IMO, you are incorrect.

    I view marriage as something which can exist between two persons, regardless of any legal contracts they have made.

    In fact, I consider it possible for two persons to be married without having performed any ceremonies whatsoever.

    I would say that a "legal marriage" would be the "*OPTIONAL ADDITION*" to it's non-legal counterpart.
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  3. #63
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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Marriage isn't a right, but EQUALITY is most assuredly a right. Those that don't get this are usually known as bigots and such.
    Being against Gay Marraige is to equate yourself with those that don't get the fact that Equality IS a right.
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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Marriage isn't a right, but EQUALITY is most assuredly a right. Those that don't get this are usually known as bigots and such.
    Being against Gay Marriage is to equate yourself with those that don't get the fact that Equality IS a right.
    I personally am not against "gay marriage" as a private (as in, not effected by any governing body) institution.

    What I AM against is the creation of laws to regulate something many persons consider part of their religion.
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  5. #65
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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Marriage is a fine institution and I think anyone who actually wants to live in an institution, should.

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  6. #66
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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Arguing that everyone has the same right to a privilege has no bearing whatsoever on, and does nothing to answer the question as to if marriage itself is a right. Marriage -is- a privilege; any rights involving marriage revolve around the right to equal protection, not the institution of marriage itself.
    Actually, "that everyone has the same right to a privilege" is the key issues here. The privileges of marriage (tax advantages, the ability to make decisions for someone who is incapacitated, etc.) are legal abilities--privileges--granted to married couples. But citizens are entitled to be treated the same under the law. How to make sure they are equally protected is the key decision here.

    People are denied drivers licenses for cause, not because there is something inherently un-driver-like about them.

    The religious arguments are really immaterial, except within the context of some religion. Religions don't "own" marriage and have no legal stake in how the state chooses to handle marriage as a legal institution.

    This debate is a 14th amendment debate, at the core. Anti-SSM people argue that marriage must be limited to a man and a woman because of tradition (religious or otherwise), but I have yet to hear a practical reason for keeping it heterosexual-only. Here's the first section of the 14th amendment, bold my emphasis:
    No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
    Failing to allow same-sex couples to marry is, "abridging a privilege," by your own admission. Prop. 8 and other similar laws violate the 14th amendment, because they prevent citizens of the US from marrying the person of their choice.
    Last edited by Rassales; 01-12-10 at 08:55 PM.

  7. #67
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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I personally am not against "gay marriage" as a private (as in, not effected by any governing body) institution.

    What I AM against is the creation of laws to regulate something many persons consider part of their religion.
    But why is it wrong for the laws of some religions and the laws of the state to be at odds? Most churches consider abortion a sin, yet it's legal. Some people don't eat pork, yet it's possible to do so under the law. So long as religions are not forced to do something they consider wrong, why should others be prevented from doing what they think is right?

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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    But why is it wrong for the laws of some religions and the laws of the state to be at odds? Most churches consider abortion a sin, yet it's legal. Some people don't eat pork, yet it's possible to do so under the law. So long as religions are not forced to do something they consider wrong, why should others be prevented from doing what they think is right?
    But that is precisely my point.

    Creating a law which allows two persons of the same sex to "marry" IS forcing some religions to do something they consider wrong.

    Some religions consider the institution of marriage to be a "man and woman only" deal.

    Thus, IMO, creating a law which legally defines it as otherwise forces those who disagree to accept something counter to their religion.

    Which is why I am one of those people who think the governments of the various states should simply cease granting marriage licenses, and start granting only "civil union" or some such licenses. Make it only a legal/financial contract, without the religious connotations.

    Edit: Then let the various religions have a nice brawl to decide if it is religiously acceptable for two persons of the same sex to marry.
    Last edited by The Mark; 01-12-10 at 09:17 PM.
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  9. #69
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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    But that is precisely my point.

    Creating a law which allows two persons of the same sex to "marry" IS forcing some religions to do something they consider wrong.
    I don't mind your "civil union only" solution--I think it's a good compromise--but please explain how SSM is forcing some religions to do anything. Just because the state will grant a marriage license to two people, there's no reason that any clergy might not refuse to perform the ceremony and sign the document for them. Rabbis aren't forced to marry Christians. Priests aren't required to marry non-Catholics or others who have not qualified themselves for marriage within the Catholic Church. This happens all the time--churches can marry or not marry whomever they choose, without interference from government, and this has always been the case. If you think this might change, explain how. Otherwise, it's a red herring.
    Last edited by Rassales; 01-12-10 at 09:25 PM.

  10. #70
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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Marriage is for a man and a woman, and everyone else can go to hell. Are we clear now?
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