View Poll Results: Is marriage a right?

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  • Yes.

    25 43.10%
  • No.

    33 56.90%
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Thread: Is marriage a right?

  1. #121
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    No, it doesn't apply YET. That alone defeats your comparison.
    No, it doesnt. The fact remains that some groups, as noted, CAN be denied privilges and immunities that are otherwise protected by the 14th. Minor and non-citzens clearly and inarguably fall among the classes of people that only enjoy limited protection from the 14th.
    And your examples don't hold up to scrutiny.
    This is laughable.
    Wow. Now that is circular.
    Only if you re-define 'circular'.
    And it would pretty much end all debate of any kind on any legal issue.
    hardly.
    YOU seem to think that the EP clause necessarily protects -everyone- from -every- form of discrimination by the state when awarding -any and all-privileges.
    It doesn't. This is why -I- said "most".
    You're caught up in minutia here...
    Seems to me that if you're going to dscuss someting, you should be as accurate as posisble. You can ignore the minutia if you want, but then you wind up being wrong.
    So we can't argue about what the 14th amendment says before a court rules because the court hasn't ruled and therefore there is no law.
    You cannot argue that the 14th protects a certian group from discrimination until a court rules. You CAN argue that it should. These are different discussions, and not interchangeable concepts.

    As it stands, and to my knowledge, the court has not yet ruled that states cannot discriminate against homosexuals when granting privileges - expanding the list of 'protected groups' to include homosexuals - and as such, you cannot say that the 14ht DOES protect them, rendering such discrimination in violation of the Constitution.

    You may argue that it SHOULD so protect them at your leisure.

  2. #122
    Advisor Rassales's Avatar
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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No, it doesnt. The fact remains that some groups, as noted, CAN be denied privilges and immunities that are otherwise protected by the 14th. Minor and non-citzens clearly and inarguably fall among the classes of people that only enjoy limited protection from the 14th.

    This is laughable.
    I think your examples are laughable, so I guess we're even.
    hardly.
    YOU seem to think that the EP clause necessarily protects -everyone- from -every- form of discrimination by the state when awarding -any and all-privileges.
    It doesn't. This is why -I- said "most".
    Now you are creating a strawman. I think the EP clause protects individuals in many cases, but not all. The key is finding a state interest in making the recognizing the difference.

    For example, minors don't have free speech rights equal to adults, but the infringement of their rights has to serve some interest. If a student protest disrupts the operation of a school, it's not allowed, but simple black armbands are okay.

    What's the state interest in denying same-sex couples a marriage license?

    Seems to me that if you're going to dscuss someting, you should be as accurate as posisble. You can ignore the minutia if you want, but then you wind up being wrong.
    And I think if you're going to make such a tiny distinction, you should do so early in the discussion, rather than using it as a way of derailing that discussion later. Playing "gotcha" over something like this serves little purpose (other than to play games), but if you insist, we can play by your silly rules. I'll stipulate that we search and replace "should" for "does." Happy?

  3. #123
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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    Now you are creating a strawman. I think the EP clause protects individuals in many cases, but not all. The key is finding a state interest in making the recognizing the difference.
    The EP clause protects everyone equally. All minors are protected equally, they are just not provided the same set of rights and responsibilities as adults, but every minor has the same set of rights and responsibilities as other minors. You don't see black kids being held to one standard and gay kids to another and hispanics to another, they are equal across the board.

    That's exactly what needs to happen with marriage. Anyone who is legally able to be married *AT ALL* ought to be able to marry anyone else who is legally able to be married *AT ALL*.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  4. #124
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    I think your examples are laughable...
    Only because they are examples of how you are wrong.
    You can refuse to admit you are wrong, but you're still wrong.

    Now you are creating a strawman. I think the EP clause protects individuals in many cases, but not all.
    So you DO argree with my use of the word "most".
    Thank you.

  5. #125
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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Only because they are examples of how you are wrong.
    You can refuse to admit you are wrong, but you're still wrong.
    Back at ya.

    You could ask me to substantiate my claim, but you just want to say I'm wrong. I've asked you to substantiate yours (or at least explain it) but you refuse. I guess we're at an impasse.

  6. #126
    Advisor Rassales's Avatar
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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    So you DO argree with my use of the word "most".
    Thank you.
    Not quite. I say that if exceptions are to be made, they need to be made for a reason. So far, you've provided no reason.

  7. #127
    Sporadic insanity normal.


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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    Back at ya.

    You could ask me to substantiate my claim, but you just want to say I'm wrong. I've asked you to substantiate yours (or at least explain it) but you refuse. I guess we're at an impasse.
    Perhaps you are both wrong?

    Wait, what were you talking about?
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  8. #128
    Advisor Rassales's Avatar
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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Perhaps you are both wrong?

    Wait, what were you talking about?
    The nature of two Bible verses. I made reference to their original language and their context. Blackdog told me I obviously don't know anything about the Bible. I asked him to explain--he repeated his belief in my ignorance.

  9. #129
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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    The nature of two Bible verses. I made reference to their original language and their context. Blackdog told me I obviously don't know anything about the Bible. I asked him to explain--he repeated his belief in my ignorance.
    Which is, of course, silly. The Bible has nothing whatsoever to do with American law, it doesn't matter what the Bible says with regards to equality in marriage.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  10. #130
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    Re: Is marriage a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Which is, of course, silly. The Bible has nothing whatsoever to do with American law, it doesn't matter what the Bible says with regards to equality in marriage.
    I agree, though I don't think supposed Christians should go unchallenged when they make claims based on scriptures they only know in translation and whose context they've made no attempt to understand.

    In other words, not only does the Bible have no standing in American law--it doesn't even say what some believers think it does.

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