View Poll Results: Should we legalize pot?

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  • yes

    110 79.71%
  • no

    24 17.39%
  • I forget

    4 2.90%
  • bang a gong

    3 2.17%
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Thread: Should marijuana be legalized?

  1. #301
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    Re: Should marijuana be legalized?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Wow...you're seriously trying to say that water is worse than marijuana.

    ....just wow.

    Please refer to my post 9 posts up and you'll see my argument against this notion. Just because water overdose, which is EXTREMELY unlikely and almost 99% of the time occurs not due to water but due to some kind of outward activity that combines with it, can cause death does not mean it is more dangerous than Marijuana.

    Put it this way...

    Find all the cases of "Water Drunk in excess + Holding it in for a contest = death" that you can, and I'll find all the "Smokes pot + drives car = death" and lets see whose total is higher.
    There is no "outward activity" necessary to die from water intoxication. You simply have to drink a lot of water without getting enough salt or other minerals. I agree that it is unlikely for this to happen, but it is even more unlikely to overdose on cannabis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skateguy View Post
    to me, Life is one big "tasting contest"--I try everything, to see what I like. the things I like, I order up a double. the things I don't like, I feed to the dog. I don't live in fear of death, I welcome it's coming. Calculated risk is fine with me---but I don't bungie jump.
    I don't fear death either. But I don't think I need to experience something to decide if I would like it or not. If I don't like chocolate or peanut butter I'm not going to like a peanut butter cup. If I don't like heights or going fast then I don't need to bungee jump. I am immune to poison ivy, but it would be silly for me to say that the plant isn't harmful. The same can be true for your experiences with marijuana.
    Schadenfreude ist die schönste Freude.

  2. #302
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    Re: Should marijuana be legalized?

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    It's a fallacy to ask someone to prove a negative. The burden of proof is on those people who claim MJ causes mental health problems.
    Incorrect in this case. While you can't prove a negative you can have studies that show that something has "no affect".

    For example, lets take 3 experiments, each with three tests.

    Experiment A showed an effect in each test

    Experiment B showed no effect in each test

    Experiment C showed an effect on one, no effect on the other, and a questionable level of effect on the third.

    Therefore group A would conclude "Yes, it did have an effect", group B would conclude "no it did not have an effect", and group C would conclude "We can not determine for sure if there is or isn't an effect".

    In this case it appears that Experiment C is likely the correct one, as there's experiments showing it does have an affect, others that show it doesn't, and some that can't really get a conclusion. It would seem in that case that no true conclusion can be reached as to whether or not it has an effect.

    Your are confusing the fallacy of proving a negative.

    Proving that something doesn't have an effect IS possible. Or, at least, having tests to show if something has an effect or not is possible.

    For instance, if I stated "Water dropped from a bucket onto a persons shoulder will cure a dislocated shoulder" and you said "No it doesn't" if I told you "prove it" you could, to a reasonable degree, prove that negative.

    how?

    By taking a sample, lets for instance say 10, of people with dislocated shoulders and pouring a bucket of water on their shoulder. When all 10 of them show absolutely no signs of that shoulder being fixed it'd be reasonable to conclude that water has no affect on a seperated shoulder.

    In this case, as I've said, all the studies posted or that I've seen thus far have ranged from either the people conducting them coming to the conclusion that it DOES have an effect or that they got mixed results leading to an inability to say for certain whether it does or not. What I have not seen is any studies saying "We discovered in each case that marijuana had no effect on mental health issues".

    You're wrong about the fallacy in this case. In this instance people have provided evidence that at worst, its inconclusive...meaning you can't claim 100% that it IS absolutely safe and 100% that it DOESN'T have an affect on mental health. If you want to claim that you need to provide evidence of some sort that it definitely doesn't have an affect, just like if they want to say without question that it DOES affect it they need to present something to show that it does. Till then, its an arguable bit of information that can't be treated as fact in either direction (but as I've said I've seen more evidence leaning towards the "trigger" side than away from it)

  3. #303
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    Re: Should marijuana be legalized?

    Quote Originally Posted by angrybeaver View Post
    I take your point but a professors opinion quoted in popular media convinces me more than tokers.

    I respect yours but agree with him.
    Fair enough, but the constant insinuations do annoy me after all, let me say it clearly, once and for all:
    I am not a "toker", I do not like marijuana and partook in a total of 2 joints during the last 30 years.
    This prevents me as little from arguing in favour of legislation as me being hetero stops me supporting gay marriage or being white from objecting to racism.
    "REGRETTABLE NECESSITY, n. An avoidable atrocity. The term is often employed by presidents and prime ministers when announcing bombings of civilian targets and invasions of small countries."
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    Re: Should marijuana be legalized?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsunami View Post
    There is no "outward activity" necessary to die from water intoxication. You simply have to drink a lot of water without getting enough salt or other minerals. I agree that it is unlikely for this to happen, but it is even more unlikely to overdose on cannabis.
    Actually, you do need an outward activity to die from water intoxication.

    The two general cases in which people die from water intoxication is:

    1. In contests where they are not allowed to vomit or pee, thus forcefully choosing to forgo natural bodily reflexes that is your body fighting against the poisoning. Essentially, choosing to do something else which creates the situation where death is possible

    2. In sports situations, in which case one must be actively doing putting forth some extreme exertion while taking down large amounts of water. Again, it is not singularly the act of drinking water that does it but the addition of another factor into the equation.

    A healthy person is likely 99.99999999% unlikely to die from water intoxication if they're not forcefully keeping themselves from going to the bathroom or vomiting or doing extremely exhaustive exercise, even if they drink a whole lot of water during the day.

    All the while, it does not have nearly as many of the other negative effects that pot either unquestionably has or at the very least is realistically potentially has.

    No, there's no comparing Marijuana and its potential negative effects and danger and water. One must go to the absolute most extreme position with water, and combine it with some other activity, to get to any legitimate place of danger or negative with it in a healthy person. Such is not the case with marijuana.

  5. #305
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    Re: Should marijuana be legalized?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Incorrect in this case. While you can't prove a negative you can have studies that show that something has "no affect".
    ...
    I think the findings have already been presented in summary.
    The risk is low and mostly affects young adolescents.
    The four main theories


    • The first theory suggests that cannabis use can cause mental disorders, or worsen existing psychotic symptoms (paranoia, hallucinations and delusions) among people with schizophrenia and bipolar affective disorder;
    • The second argues that cannabis use can trigger psychotic symptoms in those who are already prone to mental disorders - for instance, those who have close family members with illnesses such as schizophrenia;
    • The third states that cannabis use doesn't cause or trigger mental illness, but that some people are likely to experience both simply as a result of common circumstances, such as stress and anxiety caused by family difficulties, unemployment or other drug use;
    • The fourth claims that any link is down to the fact that many people with mental health disorders use cannabis to ease the symptoms they're experiencing.
    Cannabis and mental health - TheSite.org

    Here a summary of a reputable anti-legalising source:
    Marijuana and Mental Health
    A number of studies have shown an association between chronic marijuana use and increased rates of anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, and schizophrenia. Some of these studies have shown age at first use to be a factor, where early use is a marker of vulnerability to later problems. However, at this time, it is not clear whether marijuana use causes mental problems, exacerbates them, or is used in attempt to self-medicate symptoms already in existence. Chronic marijuana use, especially in a very young person, may also be a marker of risk for mental illnesses, including addiction, stemming from genetic or environmental vulnerabilities, such as early exposure to stress or violence. At the present time, the strongest evidence links marijuana use and schizophrenia and/or related disorders.6 High doses of marijuana can produce an acute psychotic reaction; in addition, use of the drug may trigger the onset or relapse of schizophrenia in vulnerable individuals.
    Marijuana - InfoFacts - NIDA
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  6. #306
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    Re: Should marijuana be legalized?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Actually, you do need an outward activity to die from water intoxication.

    The two general cases in which people die from water intoxication is:

    1. In contests where they are not allowed to vomit or pee, thus forcefully choosing to forgo natural bodily reflexes that is your body fighting against the poisoning. Essentially, choosing to do something else which creates the situation where death is possible

    2. In sports situations, in which case one must be actively doing putting forth some extreme exertion while taking down large amounts of water. Again, it is not singularly the act of drinking water that does it but the addition of another factor into the equation.

    A healthy person is likely 99.99999999% unlikely to die from water intoxication if they're not forcefully keeping themselves from going to the bathroom or vomiting or doing extremely exhaustive exercise, even if they drink a whole lot of water during the day.

    All the while, it does not have nearly as many of the other negative effects that pot either unquestionably has or at the very least is realistically potentially has.

    No, there's no comparing Marijuana and its potential negative effects and danger and water. One must go to the absolute most extreme position with water, and combine it with some other activity, to get to any legitimate place of danger or negative with it in a healthy person. Such is not the case with marijuana.
    You are wrong. There are many factors that can increase your risk besides the two scenarios you mentioned, but none of them are necessary. It can be caused by diarrhea or vomiting that results in lack of salt absorption and increased fluid intake. It can be caused by excess sweating regardless of exertion. They can give you too much fluid in a hospital. There are mental conditions that cause people to drink too much water. People on diets have died from it. There doesn't need to be any other external factor other than too much water intake.

    As far as other negative effects.. I was trying to stick to this subject so I wouldn't have to mention drowning, floods, tsunamis, etc.
    Last edited by Tsunami; 01-11-10 at 06:00 PM.
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    Re: Should marijuana be legalized?

    Let's have a contest. I'll smoke a joint and Z will drink a twelve ounce glass of water until one of us dies.

  8. #308
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    Re: Should marijuana be legalized?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I am questioning whether pot smoking can be a trigger for pre-existing mental illness.
    No more so than Grapefruit juice.
    "Don't be particular bout nothin, but the company you keep"

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    Re: Should marijuana be legalized?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsunami View Post
    You are wrong. There are many factors that can increase your risk besides the two scenarios you mentioned, but none of them are necessary. It can be caused by diarrhea or vomiting that results in lack of salt absorption and increased fluid intake
    Diarrhea and vomiting don't just "happen". Diarrhea comes about typically due to health reasons, and as such AGAIN you can not simply equate it to WATER alone being more dangerous than marijuana because it needs a SICK person to even have the POTENTIAL in this case of being dangerous. Similarly with vomiting, which would require someone to be ill to vomit that much OR to cause the action themselves...again, not just from drinking water.

    It can be caused by excess sweating regardless of exertion.
    The level of excess sweating would be of such a great and huge proportion that one would have to have some kind of medical condition for such to happen, in which case, again, its not just the intake of water but a combination with a medical condition.

    They can give you too much fluid in a hospital.
    Again, a highly unlikely scenario and again one which requires some other exterior factor to become dangerous. Someone could give you pot and put you in a car too.

    There are mental conditions that cause people to drink too much water. People on diets have died from it. There doesn't need to be any other external factor other than too much water intake.
    MENTAL CONDITION

    DIETS

    Oh look, again, words either indicating some kind of ILLNESS or the person doing some kind of other action that allows water to get to the point of being that dangerous.

    And again, even then, are at a RIDICULOUSLY low level of occurance

    As far as other negative effects.. I was trying to stick to this subject so I wouldn't have to mention drowning, floods, tsunamis, etc.
    .....

    Okay, thanks, yeah...you're not attempting serious discussion here at all if you're pulling out your trump card is that you're going to pull out water killing you in ways that have NOTHING TO DO WITH INGESTION



    for the love of christ. People like you and Liberal are as much to blame for this not being legal as those that buy into the myths, because its ridiculous, over the top, pathetically ignorant and stupid arguments like this that cause the average person that has no dog in this fight to look at it and go "haha, stupid potheads, they just want to get high"

  10. #310
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    Re: Should marijuana be legalized?

    The thing is, I really don't care how bad pot is for someone when disscussing whether to make it legal or not. It is no reason to make it illegal to produce and sell to adults. If it was illegal to sell you anything that stood a chance of killing you or ruining your life, then cars, gambling, alcohol, and engagement rings would be banned. The the cost in money and blood in the War on Drugs are far higher than the death toll of all illicit drugs combined in this country. Yes, pot may increase the chance of mental illness in those more predisposed to it. It might cause cancer. SO WHAT? Alcohol definately can give you cirrosis of the liver.
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