Liberty works, people! Yes!
Liberty works, people! Yes!
'The whole universe is going to die!'
You have already been thoroughly rebutted, you keep arguing the same thing over and over. There is no need to keep going in circles with you, when you have not presented a cogent case.
my argument?? you were the one who brought up the absinthe comparison, I just showed you how inaccurate it was, and now you want to distort it to be my argument that I am opening up??Whatever the effects of absinthe is does not alter my original argument.
You compared it to comparing one form of alchohol with another..it wasnt but you seem to think that by stating that thujone has a different effect than thc has any bearing on the argument..you are just opening up another argument to disguise the weakness it your original point.
angrybeaver: "Pot has some good points but allowing the strong bud to be legal is simply wrong..like only allowing alchohol to be sold as absinthe."
me: "Those are two different drugs you are comparing there, if you wanted a parallel, then your argument would have to say "but pot laced with PCP should be illegal""
angrybeaver: "As for the absinthe I have read that wormwood has similar effects as thc ."
me: "it is not the same, nor are the effects the same." [backed by supporting evidence]
Now, will you please kindly stop distorting what I post? It is not appreciated.
Theres a flurry of books PROVING why alcohol is far worse than pot.
Yes alcohol is legal and pot isnt?
But it's already been explained how this may well work differently in practice.
While I do not agree that hi-thc grass should be treated differently from other varieties in law, the impact on user habits, specially critical young age groups, deserves consideration.
"REGRETTABLE NECESSITY, n. An avoidable atrocity. The term is often employed by presidents and prime ministers when announcing bombings of civilian targets and invasions of small countries."
A drug user will self regulate to get the dosage and the effect they desire, just as they do with alcohol.
This is even easier with marijuana since the effects can be felt almost immediately. If you roll up a joint of crappy weed and pass it around the room after you are done there will likely be a consensus of "wow I am not really that stoned, roll up another". Do the same with high THC and repeat, and you will find people half way through saying "nah, i'm good, go ahead I'll pass"
And yes I know this is anecdotal, but it is also something I have in the past seen played out literally hundreds of times.
Regardless, we are getting sidetracked on a tangent. What dosage is consumed is completely up to the user, there is no reason to try to regulate this for them at the supply side.
Providing only an inferior product that virtually insures a black market will continue to thrive completely defeats the purpose.
Last edited by marduc; 01-09-10 at 01:50 AM.
to be honest, if it doesnt affect me as an individual, and people want it legalized....
I've read through this thread and have a few points to make. I'll start by addressing this post and will then add on a few thoughts afterwards.
(After writing this out, it turned out really long...sorry)
Secondly, the potency of marijuana can be measured. If it were legal, I think it would be reasonable (and responsible) to, as with alcohol, display the potency on the packaging. If you are saying that one spliff/joint of ANY potency is enough to get a smoker "wasted," this is a silly argument.
1. Psychosis (esp. schizophrenia): There has not been a proven causal relationship between cannabis use and schizophrenia. Studies have found varying, inconclusive results about whether cannabis use can increase the likelihood of schizophrenia, but it seems that it is only a concern for those who are genetically predisposed. For people who have schizophrenia, cannabis use has varying effects. For some, consumption worsens their symptoms, but, for others, consumption relieves negative symptoms of both the condition as well as medication. Also, although cannabis use has increased in recent years, incidence of psychotic disorders (inc. schizophrenia) has not.
[Prashant Phillips. Soft drug, hard facts. Mental Health Practice; Apr2002, Vol. 5 Issue 7, p25, 1p]
2. Gateway theory: Despite a correlation between cannabis use and harder drug use, there is no evidence of a causal relationship. General conduct problems and genetic predisposition to substance abuse are far more likely. This is mentioned in the same article I cited before. Just because a heavy drug user once used marijuana, this doesn't mean that using marijuana led to heavier drugs. Most heavy drug users were breast fed-does breast milk lead to heroin use? The only causal element is that the illegal status of marijuana forces people to interact with dealers who often sell harder drugs as well.
3. Addiction: Marijuana has been shown to not be physically addictive. This means that the human brain does not "crave" THC, like it does with opiates,cocaine, etc. Marijuana may be addicting in the sense that it's enjoyable and some people like to do it as much as possible, but this is the same kind of addiction that people get to video games and potato chips.
4. Potheads are lazy good-for-nothings: Sure, lots of stoners sit around doing nothing all day, but this is true of plenty of non-stoners as well. It's just the way some people are. There are countless regular users of marijuana who are motivated, successful, brilliant people-Carl Sagan, for example.
5. Marijuana causes lung cancer: Many studies have actually found that there is no relationship. It has even been found in some studies that marijuana use may decrease likelihood of lung cancer by stimulating the bronchi in the lungs to open up.
So even if marijuana is "dangerous," should it be illegal? I'll ignore the position held by some that EVERY drug should be legal, even the hard ones like heroin-this is a different argument. The negative effects of marijuana prohibition are far worse than the effects of smoking itself, for both individuals and society.
There are enormous costs in pursuing marijuana users. Not only does it use money that could be better spent on education, healthcare, infrastructure, national debt, etc, but it also wastes our police officers' time. Rather than busting college kids toking up on Saturday night, police officers ought to be protecting people from burglars, rapists, muggers, etc. These same arguments go for those responsible for prosecuting marijuana offenders. In addition, putting marijuana users in jail is both expensive and risky. Besides the cost that it takes to keep someone in jail, having a guy who has never broken a law in his life, besides smoking weed, hang out with a bunch of real criminals is probably not going to be a great influence. Not only does legalizing marijuana eliminate the costs associated with its prohibition, but it also gives an opportunity to generate revenue via taxes.
Putting marijuana users in jail strips them of their freedom, tears apart their families, and makes it hard for them to get jobs once they get out. Given the nature of the crime, this is ridiculous.
Currently, the people making the most money from marijuana prohibition are drug dealers who often resort to violence to distribute their product. Legalization would take this money and power away from these evil people.
Lethal overdose is impossible.
Hemp is an incredibly useful material.
That some people deny the medical uses of marijuana is absurd and hardly worth addressing.
I probably left a lot out. The main point is this: even if marijuana is harmful, prohibition is far more costly. I realize that this post is pretty much a novel, so thanks to everyone who read it all. I look forward to hearing what others have to say (especially you haters out there)-if anyone has the time to go through this point-by-point, that would be awesome, but I'll take what I can get.
"Penalties against possession of a drug should not be more damaging to an individual than the use of the drug itself; and where they are, they should be changed. Nowhere is this more clear than in the laws against possession of marihuana in private for personal use... Therefore, I support legislation amending Federal law to eliminate all Federal criminal penalties for the possession of up to one ounce of marihuana."
- Jimmy Carter
"The illegality of cannabis is outrageous, an impediment to full utilization of a drug which helps produce the serenity and insight, sensitivity and fellowship so desperately needed in this increasingly mad and dangerous world."
- Carl Sagan quote on Marijuana
"Even if one takes every reefer madness allegation of the prohibitionists at face value, marijuana prohibition has done far more harm to far more people than marijuana ever could."
- William F. Buckley Jr.
"The prestige of government has undoubtedly been lowered considerably by the prohibition law. For nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this country is closely connected with this."
- Albert Einstein quote on Hemp
"Hemp is of first necessity to the wealth & protection of the country."
- Thomas Jefferson
"Herb is the healing of a nation, alcohol is the destruction."
- Bob Marley
According to you offering a glass of beer to someone is more dangerous than offering them a glass of neat whisky. Its a plainly stupid argument and you know it!
As for going in circles, its you that is repeated saying what is plainly wrong.
Wormwood was supposed to have the same effect as thc but apparently this was disproved.
The point that I was making is that absinthe is a distinctly more potent and dangerous drink than an alchoholic one just as high concentration thc bud is a far more dangerous drug as say a mild hash or weaker bud.
You misunderstood my point and keep trying to find some relevance to the fact that absinthe has slightly different effect than what I was informed..this does not alter my point.
If you want to cherish this little victory then knock yourself out but your basic premise is ridiculous
either you are deliberately misrepresenting me, or you are failing to comprehend what I am saying.
what premise is ridiculous? do you even know what my premise is? because you have repeatedly failed to represent what I am saying accurately during our short discussion our.If you want to cherish this little victory then knock yourself out but your basic premise is ridiculous
My premise is that this is ridiculous:
now, regardless of if you lack comprehension skills, or are deliberately misrepresenting my argument, it has occurred repeatedly, and I already politely asked you to not do this. It is getting hard to remain civil in light of this. Go ahead and get your last swipes in, I am done trying to have a discussion with you.There is room for compromise maybe.
A relatively low thc content bud or hash may be an answer.