View Poll Results: Which do you prefer:

Voters
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  • Income tax - no changes in the status quo

    39 19.80%
  • Flat tax - Everyone pays the same %

    67 34.01%
  • National sales tax - don't spend, you don't pay taxes

    47 23.86%
  • No tax - Unconstitutional - rely on private donations

    10 5.08%
  • Other - explain

    21 10.66%
  • Cookies!

    13 6.60%
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Thread: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

  1. #801
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    You're going to stick with that eventhough the number of people who *qualify* for assistance was slashed significantly in the 60's upon formation of the system?
    It remains at that low level, too - eventhough the poverty-line has increased.

    *Most* poor are temporarily poor. In 1996 the measures taken to change the system made dependence on it more so temporary.

    Without the system those problems in life that lead peopel to be temporarily dependent on support of said nature (divorce, illness, job-loss, etc) would be harder to get over - if one could get passed it at all.
    if you don't drop out of HS and you wait until marriage to have children your chance of being impoverished in the US is less than one in 20

    taxes aren't the issue



  2. #802
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    When you answer Aunt Spiker's questions, I will answer yours?
    that's rather childish but I already did. make failure more painful for those who clearly are slackers or shirkers



  3. #803
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    if you don't drop out of HS and you wait until marriage to have children your chance of being impoverished in the US is less than one in 20

    taxes aren't the issue
    indeed. who were the researchers who demonstrated that if you graduated high school, didn't have kids until you were married, and worked full-time, that you were statistically guaranteed not to live in poverty?

  4. #804
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    indeed. who were the researchers who demonstrated that if you graduated high school, didn't have kids until you were married, and worked full-time, that you were statistically guaranteed not to live in poverty?
    Well - people better not get sick, get seriously injured, or get divorced - or become a Hispanic female because those seem to be associated with high levels of poverty as well.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
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  5. #805
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    indeed. who were the researchers who demonstrated that if you graduated high school, didn't have kids until you were married, and worked full-time, that you were statistically guaranteed not to live in poverty?
    No-one, because that's not what he said.
    So follow me into the desert
    As desperate as you are
    Where the moon is glued to a picture of heaven
    And all the little pigs have God

  6. #806
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    You know - the average person is only a bad situation and a few paychecks away from poverty. . . which is a disturbing thought.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
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  7. #807
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Ok - so you two think it's not as bad as I see it.
    perhaps it's because you tend to focus on the negative (or we on the positive), perhaps it's because we simply have a lower "floor". we just finished finding a house here in Oki to rent while we're here. My wife and I discovered we had quite different expectations about housing:
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill's wife
    Look, all I'm saying is, it only has one bathroom
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    yeah, but look! it has running water!


    But we all agree that we do have those who are homeless and so on. Some through their own decisions - others through the act of others. . . the reasons are quite varied.
    which is one of the many reasons why government one-size-fits-all solutions are rarely optimal, or even necessarily net beneficial.

    So what to do about it?
    oh, there are lots of good ideas out there. but it's not something that government does well. the best thing that government can generally do is provide the open field that would allow people to move themselves out of poverty, refuse to reward them for not doing so... and then get out of their way.

    School Choice, and other educational reforms would probably be an excellent example of government plans with the ability to aid the poor.

    Ending agricultural subsidies - which benefit agribusiness, but raises the price of food - would also benefit those in our society who spend a higher percentage of their income feeding themselves. In a time of food-price-inflation (which we are in), it would be especially welcome.

    Getting rid of rent-control would open up a larger amount of low-income housing.

    the FairTax would get rid of the highest tax that most working poor pay (the payroll tax), while making their economic life up to the poverty line tax-free.

    Getting rid of minimum wage laws would allow the poorest and least-skilled amongst us access to the job market; which would keep them from being forced either onto the dole or into illegal employment.

    Finding some way to (carefully) get micro-lending institutions FDIC membership, or perhaps allowing them some kind of narrow exception to the Volcker rule might be beneficial, but you would need better study on that than cpwill-throwing-out-ideas.

    Reform of the tax code (and any other government distribution of funds) to encourage marriage, and the striking down of no-fault-divorce would keep more of them in more financially stable family structures.

    Encouraging HSA's would give them tangible assets which would grow over time, while reducing their health-care costs.

    I've suggested a reform to the Social Security system here: which I demonstrated would make someone who never earned more than $32,000 a year a millionaire, at no added cost to them.

    there are plenty of good ideas out there. but at the end of the day, the ultimate responsibility is the individuals.

    Ending any of our attempts to help said individuals will only make the issue worse.
    really? welfare reform in the 90's did precisely that; and had the effect of moving many Americans off of the welfare rolls and into employment.
    Last edited by cpwill; 01-29-11 at 02:36 AM.

  8. #808
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    You know - the average person is only a bad situation and a few paychecks away from poverty. . . which is a disturbing thought.
    true; but again, that is the individuals' responsibility. when we were poor, i kept 5-6 months of living expenses in a savings account at all times in case of 'bad situations'.

  9. #809
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the great injustice is not the issue-its the mindset a progressive tax creates

    the mindset comes from the vast majority of voters thinking that a bloated government is not a problem and a deficit is not a problem because their leaders tell them the rich can be taxed at higher and higher rates to solve those problems and give the masses all the government they want

    as long as the majority that uses the majority of government spending don't have to suffer any increased taxes they have no incentive whatsoever to stop the unsustainable expansion of government

    a flat tax means that when some guy making 25K a year supports more government and taxes have to rise, he's gonna feel it and maybe next time he won't be so keen for more government expansion

    I also tire of the power congress grabbed with the PIT-it allows the dems to pander to those who want more goodies and others to pay for it while the GOP turns around and gets support by opposing wealth confiscation

    a flat tax means there would be a more honest discussion in Congress
    I'm much more interested in outcomes than in ideology, and I'm not convinced a flat tax will improve the rhetoric or stop government expansion. After all, what you call pandering is really representation, isn't it? Every American gets a vote, and it's reasonable to expect people to vote in their own self interest, so as long there are differences of opinion, there will be clashes in government, and as long as over-the-top rhetoric is effective, it will be employed. I trust our constitutional republic to seek out an equilibrium among the competing forces, meaning that Democratic politicians can continue to pander to the poor -- as somebody has to -- and the opposition party will keep their power to "confiscate wealth" in check.

    Acutally, I don't think "wealth confiscation" is an accurate term. Income in a one-year period is not reflective of wealth, just income. So even a 90% income tax (which I think is way too high, by the way) wouldn't confiscate existing wealth, though it could severely hamper one's ability to amass wealth in the first place, creating a more rigid social structure at the very top.

    Which brings up another point that others have touched on. Very few people stay in one tax bracket their whole lives. Their cirumstances change, their ability to pay changes, and their tax burden changes with them. Anyone who has only payed the top rate must enjoy a comfortable lifestyle, no?

  10. #810
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    how did the wars benefit the most of those in the top 2 percent of tax payers?

    can you prove the idiotic claim that high massive tax rates caused prosperity

    good luck if you can and what was the effective rate then versus now?
    I would imagine the owners and stockholders of companies with fat defense contracts like Halliburton prove the point perfectly that these wars have benefitted many of those at the top.

    Every time the top tax rates are discussed, proof is provided of them and folks with your opinion jump up and retort that the actual EFFECTIVE RATES were different. Okay. Here is your chance. Our side has provided the data on the rates in effect, your side on this effective rate claim has never presented any hard data.

    So lets see the hard data on just where these EFFECTIVE RATES were during the Fifties. No "common knowledge". No vague pronouncements. Provide us hard data just like the side talking about the real rates have provided.

    From GhostlyJoe

    I'm much more interested in outcomes than in ideology,
    You could take that wisdom to half the threads on this board. Well said.
    Last edited by haymarket; 01-29-11 at 09:12 AM.
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