View Poll Results: Which do you prefer:

Voters
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  • Income tax - no changes in the status quo

    39 19.80%
  • Flat tax - Everyone pays the same %

    67 34.01%
  • National sales tax - don't spend, you don't pay taxes

    47 23.86%
  • No tax - Unconstitutional - rely on private donations

    10 5.08%
  • Other - explain

    21 10.66%
  • Cookies!

    13 6.60%
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Thread: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

  1. #71
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post

    I have no problem with taxes covering necessary expenses.

    This is has been, and continues to be, the philosophical debate, ever since the writers of the Constitution included the vague term, "the General Welfare." I would include affordable health care for all our people in that category.

    On the other hand........

    Many, including myself, would argue that our optional 2 trillion dollar invasion and occupation of Iraq and the doubling of our annual defense budget so that it is almost as large as the rest of the world combined, is unnecessary and goes far beyond the requirement for National defense.
    Last edited by Catawba; 01-08-10 at 12:59 AM.
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  2. #72
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Unlike with the tea baggers who stuck with the pitchforks and torches approach!



    They pay a higher portion of the taxes because they make a higher portion of the income.


    Great you can pay for the the two optional wars, a military budget almost as large as the rest of the planet combined, and the tax breaks for the rich?



    That is because they own less than 3 % of the wealth.
    http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/250.html

    The top 1% of taxpayers earn 22.83% of national income, but pay 40.42% of all income taxes.

    The bottom 50% of taxpayers earn 12.26% of the national income, but pay 2.89% of all income taxes.

    The average federal income tax rate for someone in the top 1% of earners is 22.45%. For the bottom 50% of taxpayers, it's 2.99%.

    It's also worth noting that these numbers only account for those with a positive AGI, who had a tax liability, and who filed. There are tens of millions more at the bottom end that aren't included.
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    This is has been, and continues to be, the philosophical debate, ever since the writers of the Constitution included the vague term, "the General Welfare." I would include affordable health care for all our people in that category.

    On the other hand........

    Many, including myself, would argue that our optional 2 trillion dollar invasion and occupation of Iraq and the doubling of our annual defense budget so that it is almost as large as the rest of the world combined, is unnecessary and goes far beyond the requirement for National defense.
    I agree that there needs to be a national debate--with our fearless leaders listening--as to what constitutes the national defense. And we should be rethinking about those things that qualify for that; however, if our presence someplace is an honest to goodness deterrent against armed conflict, that should be a consideration.

    But if you include affordable healthcare as appropriate for the general welfare, why not affordable housing, affordable food, affordable transportation, affordable clothing/heating/cooling all of which are more critical to life than is most healthcare?

    The Founders definition of the general welfare was that which benefitted all of society equally from the poorest to the richest. The Founders, to a man, believed it dishonest to confiscate one person's property who legally acquired it and give it to somebody else who had not earned it. The right to one's own labor, property, and self determination, so long as the rights of others were not infringed, was the pure definition of what they meant by life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    This is has been, and continues to be, the philosophical debate, ever since the writers of the Constitution included the vague term, "the General Welfare." I would include affordable health care for all our people in that category.
    I would include televisions and perhaps automobiles. General welfare, yippee!

    And if you were wondering what they meant by "General Welfare" and whether or not it was an actual power granted to the government, here is Madison, Jefferson, and Hamilton:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/us-con...post1058428262

    On the other hand........

    Many, including myself, would argue that our optional 2 trillion dollar invasion and occupation of Iraq and the doubling of our annual defense budget so that it is almost as large as the rest of the world combined, is unnecessary and goes far beyond the requirement for National defense.
    And I would agree with you. Two wrongs don't make a right, you know.

  5. #75
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    The Tax Foundation - Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data

    The top 1% of taxpayers earn 22.83% of national income, but pay 40.42% of all income taxes.

    The bottom 50% of taxpayers earn 12.26% of the national income, but pay 2.89% of all income taxes.

    The average federal income tax rate for someone in the top 1% of earners is 22.45%. For the bottom 50% of taxpayers, it's 2.99%.

    It's also worth noting that these numbers only account for those with a positive AGI, who had a tax liability, and who filed. There are tens of millions more at the bottom end that aren't included.
    Your figures only show income and not other assets of wealth that are sheltered.

    "The top 5 percent own more than half of all wealth.

    In 1998, they owned 59 percent of all wealth. Or to put it another way, the top 5 percent had more wealth than the remaining 95 percent of the population, collectively.

    The top 20 percent owns over 80 percent of all wealth. In 1998, it owned 83 percent of all wealth."
    Wealth and Income Inequality in the USA

    This disparity has only grown since due to the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy.
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  6. #76
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I agree that there needs to be a national debate--with our fearless leaders listening--as to what constitutes the national defense. And we should be rethinking about those things that qualify for that; however, if our presence someplace is an honest to goodness deterrent against armed conflict, that should be a consideration.
    So far that has not been the case according to the Generals on the ground. We have not diminished al Qaeda's capabilities after 8 years of war.

    But if you include affordable healthcare as appropriate for the general welfare, why not affordable housing, affordable food, affordable transportation, affordable clothing/heating/cooling all of which are more critical to life than is most healthcare?
    The constitution was written to give WE THE PEOPLE the ability to determine what is in the General Welfare. That is how we implemented Social Security and Medicare. To date, we have not deemed the other things you mention to be included under that provision.

    The Founders definition of the general welfare was that which benefitted all of society equally from the poorest to the richest. The Founders, to a man, believed it dishonest to confiscate one person's property who legally acquired it and give it to somebody else who had not earned it. The right to one's own labor, property, and self determination, so long as the rights of others were not infringed, was the pure definition of what they meant by life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
    No where in the document is there a definition for General Welfare. The Founders specifically did not define General Welfare because they meant it to be a living document.
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  7. #77
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    In this thread I hear the violins bellowing for poor people quite frequently.

    How much of a yearly income do you all think is "poor?"
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    And I would agree with you. Two wrongs don't make a right, you know.
    I see no comparison between helping people in our own country and unnecessarily killing tens of thousands of people in other countries.
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  9. #79
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    So far that has not been the case according to the Generals on the ground. We have not diminished al Qaeda's capabilities after 8 years of war.
    A different discussion for a different thread. A principle or fundamental needs no anecdotal references to be established.


    The constitution was written to give WE THE PEOPLE the ability to determine what is in the General Welfare. That is how we implemented Social Security and Medicare. To date, we have not deemed the other things you mention to be included under that provision.
    No, the Founders were quite explicit in what they meant by the General Welfare and not one would have approved of either social security or medicare as a function of the federal government. The Constitution was not intended to be a document that could be molded to fit whatever ideology was presented to it, but it was intended to be a document to defend the people against those in government with fuzzy notiond concepts or ideology.


    No where in the document is there a definition for General Welfare. The Founders specifically did not define General Welfare because they meant it to be a living document.
    Nowhere in the document is there a definition for freedom or liberty or national defense or taxes or elections or those required to be elected to office eiher. The Constitution is therefore understood in the context of how the people who wrote it understood it, and we understand that by reading the large amount of material they left behind that pretty well fully spells out their intent. Anybody who hasn't read some of that material probably doesn't understand or appreciate the Constitution of the United States at all.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    In this thread I hear the violins bellowing for poor people quite frequently.

    How much of a yearly income do you all think is "poor?"
    Any full-time worker making less than a living wage ~

    "The Living Wage, based on the annual Cost of Living Adjustment (COLA), is as of January 1st, 2009, at $10.31 an hour for employees with health benefits and $11.57 for those without."
    Coalition for Economic Justice: 2009 Living Wage
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