View Poll Results: Which do you prefer:

Voters
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  • Income tax - no changes in the status quo

    39 19.80%
  • Flat tax - Everyone pays the same %

    67 34.01%
  • National sales tax - don't spend, you don't pay taxes

    47 23.86%
  • No tax - Unconstitutional - rely on private donations

    10 5.08%
  • Other - explain

    21 10.66%
  • Cookies!

    13 6.60%
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Thread: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

  1. #721
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    (My highlighting)
    An intelligent and Humane solution.
    I have proposed similar systems.

    Most proposing 'fair' or 'flat' taxes know NOT what they're voting for... they just think it sounds 'fair' or Imagine some low rate.
    The specific Natl sales tax/oxymoron called 'Fairtax' entails an (independently scored) rate of 56/57%. (Not incl state sales tax and state inc tax converted to sales tax)
    Knowing a Natl sale tax is outrageous on it's face (tho not to posters here!), 'Fairtax' added a 'prebate' to try and mediate that devastating/impossible regressivity. That raised the needed rate.

    Anyone voting for a Nat'l Sales or Flattax should have to say at WHAT rate/or up until what rate they still support it.
    It's easy/meaningless to say your 'for' something with no numbers.

    Your proposal also cuts the IRS by perhaps 1/3- ridding them of processing chicken-feed returns who provide only a tiny percent of revs anyway.
    But it would never win support as there are no Bribes/Lobby for the under 30k/50k crowd.
    That's why most tax 'simplification' schemes are top-down and regressive.

    more here:
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/econom...pay-taxes.html
    Warren Buffett exposed this to daylight in 2007 ~ "Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent. Mr Buffett told his audience, which included John Mack, the chairman of Morgan Stanley, and Alan Patricof, the founder of the US branch of Apax Partners, that US government policy had accentuated a disparity of wealth that hurt the economy by stifling opportunity and motivation."
    Buffett blasts system that lets him pay less tax than secretary - Times Online

    Those of us that were around in the pre-Reagan days have seen the ever widening gap between the rich and the poor. Today 1 out 7 people fall below the poverty line.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  2. #722
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    why does Buffett structure his compensation so he only has a salary of 100 grand?

    If he structured his salary consistent with other people running similar organizations he would have several million being taxed at 35%

    he pays a higher tax on his earned income than his ad staff and the same or higher rates on other forms of income

    those who lap up his BS are gullilble



  3. #723
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    why does Buffett structure his compensation so he only has a salary of 100 grand?

    If he structured his salary consistent with other people running similar organizations he would have several million being taxed at 35%

    he pays a higher tax on his earned income than his ad staff and the same or higher rates on other forms of income

    those who lap up his BS are gullilble
    And focusing on his income tax as it seems he and other do is missing the mark.

    He isn't just earning multi-millions every year - that's income, there. He's WORTH Billions and that WORTH is amassed in everything from personal property, stocks and bonds, assests - and so on.

    Focusing on just his pay-cut is a narrow scope to be looking through.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

  4. #724
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    the uber rich often support welfare socialist schemes so as to ingratiate themselves to politicians. welfare socialism also protects those at the very top. Buffett and his ilk want to jack up taxes on people making 400K-a couple million a year and pretend it won't hurt those people because it doesn't hurt someone whose wealthy doubles faster than the income taxes can cut it down.

    treating someone who makes 400K a year like a guy making 400 million a year is stupid-the 400K guy is far more like someone making 100K a year



  5. #725
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    And focusing on his income tax as it seems he and other do is missing the mark.

    He isn't just earning multi-millions every year - that's income, there. He's WORTH Billions and that WORTH is amassed in everything from personal property, stocks and bonds, assests - and so on.

    Focusing on just his pay-cut is a narrow scope to be looking through.
    the guy is basically a hypocrite for whining about getting "breaks" that he created due to his power

    how many people-even lower earning millionaires-can structure their compensation so its listed as capitalgains or dividends rather than salary?

    and after doing that complain that its "unfair"



  6. #726
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    why does Buffett structure his compensation so he only has a salary of 100 grand?

    If he structured his salary consistent with other people running similar organizations he would have several million being taxed at 35%

    he pays a higher tax on his earned income than his ad staff and the same or higher rates on other forms of income

    those who lap up his BS are gullilble
    He didn't even try to avoid paying higher taxes and only had to pay 17.7 percent of his taxes. This is further backed up by the study mbig referenced and the ever widening income gap shown by the statistics:

    "The gap between the wealthiest Americans and the poorest is bigger than at any time since the 1920s — just before the Depression. According to an analysis this year by Edward Wolff of New York University, the top 20% of wealthy individuals own about 85% of the wealth, while the bottom 40% own very near 0%.
    Many in that bottom 40% not only have No assets, they have Negative net wealth.
    "
    Spreading the wealth - Los Angeles Times

    The American people have been gullible, I will agree with you there, gullible for standing for it. However, pain has a way of sharpening ones senses. And as 1 out 7 people are now below the poverty line, more and more people are willing to stand up and defend themselves in the class war that officially began under Reagan when he slashed the tax rates for the top income brackets.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  7. #727
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    And focusing on his income tax as it seems he and other do is missing the mark.

    He isn't just earning multi-millions every year - that's income, there. He's WORTH Billions and that WORTH is amassed in everything from personal property, stocks and bonds, assests - and so on.

    Focusing on just his pay-cut is a narrow scope to be looking through.
    1. How did he accumulate his Billions Auntie?

    Hint: He merely bought companies and and parts of companies and rode them up. All the while paying Less taxes that those that work for a living.
    And he knows it's unfair that investing for a living (creating Nothing) and getting taxed less because of it.
    He's Still doing the same thing.

    2. He's hardly alone in any case! Take this working Wharton professor who Repeated his experiment and tells us of Buffett's Challenge to EVERY Forbes 400 CEO.
    And this guy is no zillionaire.

    Taxes, Warren Buffett, and Paying My Fair Share
    By JUSTIN WOLFERS
    Taxes, Warren Buffett, and Paying My Fair Share - NYTimes.com

    ...So that got me to thinking about how fair the tax system really is. Do the well-off pay their fair share, or do they also deserve a tax break?

    Well, let’s start with the ultra-rich. Bajillionaire Warren Buffett has argued that he isn’t being asked to pay his share. He went around his office, asking people what share of their income they pay in income taxes. Buffett’s 17.7% tax rate compared a bit too favorably with the 30% tax rate paid by his secretary.

    So it appears that the tax system favors the super-rich over working stiffs.
    And Buffett went a step further, putting his money where his mouth is. Last November he issued a challenge to his fellow billionaires:
    "I’ll bet a million dollars against any member of the Forbes 400 who challenges me that the average (federal tax rate including income and payroll taxes) for the Forbes 400 will be less than the average of their receptionists."

    So far, no-one has taken him up on this bet
    .

    What about those of us who are merely among the well-off, and not in the Buffett-stratosphere?

    Now, I’m no Warren Buffett (believe me!), but I’ve just finished figuring out my federal taxes for the year. I live comfortably (one of the virtues of teaching in a business school), but was dismayed to learn that my federal taxes for 2007 amount to only 16% of my income.

    This strikes me as astonishingly low. And it’s not like I have a fancy approach to tax minimization; I just write off a bunch of business-related expenses, and benefit enormously from deductions for mortgage interest and charitable giving. Obviously city and state taxes drive my total tax bill up a bit further, as do payroll taxes, although I plan on getting some of that back as social security in my old age.

    But the point remains: I had never quite realized that the Warren Buffett problem extends far enough down the income distribution that even folks like myself aren’t paying their fair share.

    So I repeated Warren Buffett’s experiment here at Wharton. And it appears that I’m paying lower taxes than the administrative staff in my department. And if it is true here, I suspect the same goes equally for most folks in the top 10% of income earners.
    So Auntie.. watcha say now?
    Last edited by mbig; 01-28-11 at 12:51 AM.
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  8. #728
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    I don't like the idea of a national sales tax... I am kind of shocked that so many conservatives actually support a tax inflating prices in the free market, and that's exactly why I oppose it. I think a flat income tax would make more sense than a flat sales tax. Holy crap... if the government isn't collecting enough dough, they'd just raise taxes on everything, and the free market would be volatile. I foresee black markets popping up in that situation. In fact, I'd support black markets myself because I like being creative and thinking how to get out of taxes... purchase things in a foreign country and sneak it back, bartering.. lol. The government would try to figure out how to tax bartering.
    Last edited by SheWolf; 01-28-11 at 12:54 AM.

  9. #729
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the guy is basically a hypocrite for whining about getting "breaks" that he created due to his power

    how many people-even lower earning millionaires-can structure their compensation so its listed as capitalgains or dividends rather than salary?

    and after doing that complain that its "unfair"
    GE and Exxon paid no US income tax in 2009.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  10. #730
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    He didn't even try to avoid paying higher taxes and only had to pay 17.7 percent of his taxes. This is further backed up by the study mbig referenced and the ever widening income gap shown by the statistics:

    "The gap between the wealthiest Americans and the poorest is bigger than at any time since the 1920s — just before the Depression. According to an analysis this year by Edward Wolff of New York University, the top 20% of wealthy individuals own about 85% of the wealth, while the bottom 40% own very near 0%.
    Many in that bottom 40% not only have No assets, they have Negative net wealth.
    "
    Spreading the wealth - Los Angeles Times

    The American people have been gullible, I will agree with you there, gullible for standing for it. However, pain has a way of sharpening ones senses. And as 1 out 7 people are now below the poverty line, more and more people are willing to stand up and defend themselves in the class war that officially began under Reagan when he slashed the tax rates for the top income brackets.
    why is there a gap? its not that we tax the rich too little-its that those at the bottom aren't engaging in activities that make them more valuable

    spawning like rabbits, dropping out of HS and doing drugs is the major causes of poverty

    nothing to blame the rich for



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