View Poll Results: Which do you prefer:

Voters
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  • Income tax - no changes in the status quo

    39 19.80%
  • Flat tax - Everyone pays the same %

    67 34.01%
  • National sales tax - don't spend, you don't pay taxes

    47 23.86%
  • No tax - Unconstitutional - rely on private donations

    10 5.08%
  • Other - explain

    21 10.66%
  • Cookies!

    13 6.60%
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Thread: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

  1. #61
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Which is why it's not a good form of taxation. In order to get the amount of tax revenue needed to finance the government, we'd have to raise the tax rates to oppressive levels that the people who do pay taxes wouldn't be able to afford.
    Except no one can agree on how much tax revenue is "needed" to finance the government. Us libertarian-minded individuals believe it is considerably less than is currently the case, which means a national sales tax (and a flat tax with exemptions) would be a good model if we were to assume a libertarian government as opposed to the bloated, statist model others advocate.

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Universal Tax Formula:

    Gross Income x 10% = Tax Owed
    10% for a low-income family and 10% for a billionaire are two very different things. Poor families need all they have for bare essentials, whereas rich ones have much more than enough for essentials and mostly use money on other things. You can take away a much larger percentage of that wealth before the earner starts to feel it so much that it becomes a disincentive to make that much money; using the logic of the Laffer Curve, it follows that the point of maximum revenue is higher for the rich than for the poor.

  3. #63
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Except no one can agree on how much tax revenue is "needed" to finance the government. Us libertarian-minded individuals believe it is considerably less than is currently the case, which means a national sales tax (and a flat tax with exemptions) would be a good model if we were to assume a libertarian government as opposed to the bloated, statist model others advocate.
    While I do believe that our current government is certainly bloated and needs reductions in certain areas, I believe that even with the reductions I advocate a national sales tax would still not bring in the revenue needed to fund an effective government.

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    10% for a low-income family and 10% for a billionaire are two very different things. Poor families need all they have for bare essentials, whereas rich ones have much more than enough for essentials and mostly use money on other things. You can take away a much larger percentage of that wealth before the earner starts to feel it so much that it becomes a disincentive to make that much money; using the logic of the Laffer Curve, it follows that the point of maximum revenue is higher for the rich than for the poor.
    Just exempt the working poor from paying income taxes and implement both a national sales tax and flat tax on income. It's fair and uncomplicated.

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    My first instinct is to get the pitchforks and torches
    That says a lot about the person right there.

    Tax the millionaires.
    If you really don't think that the rich pay a really high portion of the taxes as it is, you aren't very well informed.

    But the class war goes on
    Only in the minds of class-envying socialists.

    and the rich keep getting richer.
    This is a bad thing... why?

    We are now at a point where our nation will collapse financially without massive Government spending that will create jobs.
    This is very, very, horribly incorrect for reasons that have nothing to do with the thread topic so I won't even get into.

    We can not continue to assume that no one has to pay for anything and the free market will provide for all. This is simply not true. Someone must pay. How it should be should be based on who has the ability to pay.
    Or maybe - gasp! - people can pay for their own stuff.
    What a novel idea!

    Therefore, I propose a Millionaires tax, as well as a fundamental progressive shift in our tax code which shifts the burden off the lower brackets by creating new, higher brackets.
    What burden on the lower brackets? The bottom 50% of taxpayers pay 3% of the taxes.

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Except no one can agree on how much tax revenue is "needed" to finance the government. Us libertarian-minded individuals believe it is considerably less than is currently the case, which means a national sales tax (and a flat tax with exemptions) would be a good model if we were to assume a libertarian government as opposed to the bloated, statist model others advocate.
    False dichotomy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Just exempt the working poor from paying income taxes and implement both a national sales tax and flat tax on income. It's fair and uncomplicated.
    For one thing, if you think that the Federal government can institute two taxes and not be "uncomplicated", you don't know the Federal government very well.
    Secondly, to have a point where there's a sudden jump from no taxes to the same tax as everyone else is a bad idea and a huge incentive for people who would normally be just past that point to be less productive so as to be on the no-tax side.

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    That says a lot about the person right there.
    Unlike with the tea baggers who stuck with the pitchforks and torches approach!

    If you really don't think that the rich pay a really high portion of the taxes as it is, you aren't very well informed.
    They pay a higher portion of the taxes because they make a higher portion of the income.
    Or maybe - gasp! - people can pay for their own stuff.
    What a novel idea!
    Great you can pay for the the two optional wars, a military budget almost as large as the rest of the planet combined, and the tax breaks for the rich?

    What burden on the lower brackets? The bottom 50% of taxpayers pay 3% of the taxes.
    That is because they own less than 3 % of the wealth.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    For one thing, if you think that the Federal government can institute two taxes and not be "uncomplicated", you don't know the Federal government very well.
    I thought we were discussing ideals. Ideally, we would have a flat income tax of ~15% with an exemption for the poor, and a national sales tax of ~8%, and the government wouldn't muck things up so much.

    Secondly, to have a point where there's a sudden jump from no taxes to the same tax as everyone else is a bad idea and a huge incentive for people who would normally be just past that point to be less productive so as to be on the no-tax side.
    It depends on several things.

    The lower the tax rate, the more incentive there is to move into the next tax bracket.

    The lower the exemption threshold, the more incentive there is to move into the next bracket.

    Also important, there are only two tax brackets. Once you're paying taxes, you don't have to worry about another increase, so you can just keep making more and more money for yourself. That seems like a huge incentive for people above the threshold to continue being as productive as possible.

    You also neglect the fact that the poor would still be paying a sales tax, so it's not like they're paying nothing.

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    First of all, your tithe was optional. Furthermore, you're talking about your PERCEPTION of how much it hurt you, whereas I'm talking about actual well-being. Someone who spends 100% (or more) of their income on basic necessities is going to be hurt more by higher taxes than someone who has some discretionary income.
    They are hurt far more by a floundering economy with high unemployment and a growing generation of people who are growing up with a sense of entitlement and a belief that big government should and will take care of them if enough people demand that. They are benefitted most by knowing they must get an education to pay the rent, that they must learn a trade to put bread on the table, and they must go to work if they ever hope to have the things they want in life. There simply are not enough rich to take care of all the poor and if you attempt to make them do so, they pack their money and go elsewhere leaving even less opportunity for the poor to take care of themselves. No poor man ever gave me a job, and there is something inherently immoral and Unamerican about forcing one citizen to be slave to another.

    Should there be compassion for the poor? Of course. Should there be safety nets? Yes, but these should be administered at the state or local level and preferably by the private sector.

    But if tax increases do not affect the lower income as well as the higher income, you cannot help but initiate class warfare and build automatic inequity into the system. It is not a healthy thing.


    And yet, some of the developed countries with the most progressive tax structures (e.g. Norway, Denmark) have some of the lowest levels of poverty, whereas the United States has an extremely high amount of poverty for a country as developed as we are. Hmm.
    You are talking about countries with homogenous populations and size approximating one of our states. A social contract can be competently sustained in such a society, but even those societies cannot perpetually sustain huge entitlements or encourage poverty. That's why I strongly advocate that the Federal government focus on its constitutionally mandated responsibilities and leave everything else to the states and local communities as the Founders intended, and why I think as much of the safety net be left to the private sector as possible.

    I have no problem with taxes covering necessary expenses. I have huge problems with taxes being collected to buy favors, votes, power, prestige, and increase personal wealth of those who collect them.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Unlike with the tea baggers who stuck with the pitchforks and torches approach!
    I'm all for torches and pitchforks when it comes to politicians who were elected to serve the nation; it serves as a friendly reminder of who's in charge. Private citizens aren't elected to anything and telling them who's in charge is antithetical to freedom.

    They pay a higher portion of the taxes because they make a higher portion of the income.
    Only partially true.
    Taxation in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    the top 0.1% of taxpayers by income pay 17.4% of federal income taxes (earning 9.1% of the income), the top 1% with gross income of $328,049 or more pay 36.9% (earning 19%), the top 5% with gross income of $137,056 or more pay 57.1% (earning 33.4%), and the bottom 50% with gross income of $30,122 or less pay 3.3% (earning 13.4%)
    Great you can pay for the the two optional wars, a military budget almost as large as the rest of the planet combined, and the tax breaks for the rich?
    Afghanistan is not an optional war, though you could make the case for Iraq. The military budget is only about 19% of government spending. And nobody pays for tax breaks for the rich, since by definition you need to buy something in order to pay for it.

    That is because they own less than 3 % of the wealth.
    True. But they don't earn less than 3% of the income, as shown above, and it is income that is taxed, not wealth.

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