View Poll Results: Which do you prefer:

Voters
197. You may not vote on this poll
  • Income tax - no changes in the status quo

    39 19.80%
  • Flat tax - Everyone pays the same %

    67 34.01%
  • National sales tax - don't spend, you don't pay taxes

    47 23.86%
  • No tax - Unconstitutional - rely on private donations

    10 5.08%
  • Other - explain

    21 10.66%
  • Cookies!

    13 6.60%
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Thread: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

  1. #671
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by friday View Post
    There are many reasons not to go with a consumption tax. Here are a few:

    1. Taxes will make it harder for the poor to buy food. I have heard two solutions to this, both are terrible. The first is to exempt necessities. If you do that, I swear to you that necessities will be determined by what manufacturing plants are in what districts of the party in power. It will give rise to the single largest power grab by either party.
    All regressive taxes have that effect.

    The other solution is a prebate check to every single American at the beginning of each month based on a percentage of the poverty level. This leaves us with two options. The government sends out more than 300 million checks every month, or you have to file a tax return every month to let the government know who is in your family. When the government tried to pay one time checks of $250 only to military and social security retirees, they sent over 72,000 to inmates and dead people, and missed many of the people who should have actually gotten them. And you think the government could handle 300 million checks a month?
    Prebate and enforcement probably would create a bigger bureaucracy than the IRS.
    and doesn't remedy the situation.

    They did a study in Arkansas showing Fairtax hurt everyone who made between 15,000 and 200,000.

    Using a real rate, not the Phony rate FairyTax uses, it's even worse.
    Independent scoring puts fairtax at 56/57%.

    And Fairtax doesn't just tax Food,
    Fairytax taxes RENT, Medical (Prescription/procedures), Utilities, Autos, Insurance, New Houses.... etc etc
    Everything.


    2. This whole idea that a consumption tax lets you decide what to pay because you don't pay taxes unless you spend the money is basic stupidity. The only way you can get out of paying the national sales tax is to not spend the money EVER. In that case, what is the point of having the money?
    The poor and low-middle/middle HAVE to spend virtually all their money to live.
    Which will then be taxed at at least Fairtaxes claimed 30% rate + State sales taxes. (and state inc taxes converted to sales taxes)
    A real combined rate is probably 70%


    3. Consumption taxes will require businesses to file monthly tax returns that will include many complicated issues, including lump sum contracts, international sales, wholesaler v. resaler issues, non-profit sales, and of course my favorite, lump sum contracts to non-profits. The IRS will also need to perform regular audits to ensure that companies (especially small retailers) are not doing under the table cash sales. If anything the IRS will increase in size to handle the prebates and the monthly sales tax returns.
    Yes, possibly bigger than the IRS.

    4. People with savings that have already been taxed will face double taxation when we switch over to the new system.
    Good point. Those in retirement already and the Baby Boomers (those within 15 yrs of retirement) is no small demographic.

    5. The Real Independently scored 'Fairtax' rate is 56/57%. (not incl state sales tax)

    6. It would create a giant underground economy. Sales go BLACK.
    There's never been an incentive to cheat so easily, so often.
    The needed rate goes yet higher.

    For a discussion of this and other Top-Down-Scam taxes:
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/econom...pay-taxes.html
    Last edited by mbig; 01-19-11 at 11:20 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
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  2. #672
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    This has to be the worst idea in a world of bad ideas. So we want to discourage savings and have America be more of a consumer society.
    How on earth does a tax on wealth over ten million dollars discourage saving?

  3. #673
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    How on earth does a tax on wealth over ten million dollars discourage saving?
    why should there be a tax on wealth other than to pander to parasitic mentalities



  4. #674
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    So that they can reduce their burden by reducing government spending. You know this, why are you asking.
    You greatly confuse words. I know this?!?!?!It is truly amazing how you "know" what I supposedly "know". I see few people other than those on the far right who scream and gnash their teeth whining about reducing government spending. Go out and ask people this question...
    'which government spending programs that you currently benefit from would you advocate ending?' The resulting silence will tell you all you need to know.
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  5. #675
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You greatly confuse words. I know this?!?!?!It is truly amazing how you "know" what I supposedly "know". I see few people other than those on the far right who scream and gnash their teeth whining about reducing government spending. Go out and ask people this question...
    'which government spending programs that you currently benefit from would you advocate ending?' The resulting silence will tell you all you need to know.
    yeah to you anyone who wants the bloated government to spend less is "far right"



  6. #676
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    yeah to you anyone who wants the bloated government to spend less is "far right"
    Could you quote the post where I made that allegation?
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  7. #677
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Why would we want to burden those who can pay the least? What kind of evil, selfish, self centered, totally absorbed individual who scorns society would want that? There cannot be more than a few of those people ..... can there????? Such feelings are 180 degrees opposite the Christian tradion that helped found this nation and the spirit of fellowship and community which unites us as a common people. Its un-American I tell you!!!!
    Hold on a moment. Why is it when we start talking about people paying their fair share, there is always a person that jumps onto the "this nation was founded upon Christian values" wagon - but these are often times, the SAME people that will dig their heels in when talking about the 'far right' being radical Christians. I believe this is called selective reasoning and I dismiss posts like this.

    Tell me - do you think it's better to enable learned helplessness or do you feel it's better to empower people with the tools necessary to take care of themselves?

    Why is it selfish and self centered to WANT people to learn how to care for themselves and not continue on a cycle of dependency that falls squarely on the shoulders of others who have had the tools necessary to care for themselves and their families?

    I don't know of a single person who would want the truly needy to go without - but I DO know people who want those same people to learn new skills and have the opportunity to do for themselves and not continue on being a dependent of our taxes.

    Do you disagree?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    No, not really. Our economy is based on consumerism. When we don't spend money we fall into a recession. If spending drops too much we will be in a depression.
    What are we in now?
    Fool me once, shame on you.
    Fool me twice....shame on me.

  8. #678
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you seem to forget-if the government spends less money we are better off
    To a point. Government spending did help build this country. It built infrastructure, security, safety, stability, schools, hospitals, defense, roads, dams and assistance for those that can't help themselves, everything that allowed this country to be the greatest on earth. It allowed many people to get very rich. Compare the US to at other countries with zero government spending and you will understand where we would be without it. The problem is wasteful government spending (for example the trillion dollars wasted in Iraq) and government should only spend what it takes in.
    Last edited by Dirty Harry; 01-20-11 at 11:00 AM.

  9. #679
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    why should there be a tax on wealth other than to pander to parasitic mentalities
    To pay for the things that allowed the person to get weathly. They could not have done it alone or without a stable environment created by the government or educated employees educated by the government or the infrastructure created by the government. They benefited most from government spending.

  10. #680
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGirlNextDoor View Post
    Hold on a moment. Why is it when we start talking about people paying their fair share, there is always a person that jumps onto the "this nation was founded upon Christian values" wagon - but these are often times, the SAME people that will dig their heels in when talking about the 'far right' being radical Christians. I believe this is called selective reasoning and I dismiss posts like this.

    Tell me - do you think it's better to enable learned helplessness or do you feel it's better to empower people with the tools necessary to take care of themselves?

    Why is it selfish and self centered to WANT people to learn how to care for themselves and not continue on a cycle of dependency that falls squarely on the shoulders of others who have had the tools necessary to care for themselves and their families?

    I don't know of a single person who would want the truly needy to go without - but I DO know people who want those same people to learn new skills and have the opportunity to do for themselves and not continue on being a dependent of our taxes.

    Do you disagree?


    What are we in now?
    Admitting our historical foundations is not the same thing as being a radical anything be it Christian, Jew, Muslim or whatever.

    I certainly agree that it is much better to help people acquire the skills and tools to fend for themselves. I also accept that some falter aand need help along the way.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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