View Poll Results: Which do you prefer:

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  • Income tax - no changes in the status quo

    39 19.80%
  • Flat tax - Everyone pays the same %

    67 34.01%
  • National sales tax - don't spend, you don't pay taxes

    47 23.86%
  • No tax - Unconstitutional - rely on private donations

    10 5.08%
  • Other - explain

    21 10.66%
  • Cookies!

    13 6.60%
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Thread: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

  1. #581
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I was with you right up to your last 6 words Owl which are contrary to the Preamble of Constitution which goes to the spirit of the Constitution.

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
    Yes, the very heart of the Constitution:

    Secure the Blessings of Liberty.


    Which means it can't be authorizing government theft of private incomes, guarantees of minimum incomes, or any of the other socialist claptrap failed freedom stealing notions from the Left.

  2. #582
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I don't figure that. My meaning is that the direction offered under the Preamble, among the other things it describes, allows for the creation of programs to help establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, and promote the general Welfare of We the People.
    Your meaning is both wrong and not supported historically by the authors of the Constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I just don't see the conflict between promoting the general welfare, establishing Justice, and liberty for all that you see. And neither have the courts apparently for the last 96 years.
    It's the stealing part included in you people's interpretation of the General Welfare clause, and your assumption that this clause is a blank check for any and ever expansion of Congressional power you desire that's the problem.

  3. #583
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by nerv14 View Post
    why do you think "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" are so important anyway? Seriously, why should that goal be promoted beyond all others?


    I just don't think that they are worth not promoting a utilitarian goal.
    Here's a notion:

    The people that founded the country didn't believe it was the government's job to plan people's lives or judge how they're lived, outside of obvious criminal behaviors.

    That's what "freedom" is about.

    It's freedom from government interference.

    There's no promise that the government was going to pick up someone who falls down, not in the least.

  4. #584
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by nerv14 View Post
    why are you so much against wealth redistribution? whats wrong with having something that wasn't directly earned?
    Why should I give up what I earn because you are to lazy to work and you expect others to support you?

  5. #585
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    Why should I give up what I earn because you are to lazy to work and you expect others to support you?
    That's a very loaded question. And a strawman... no one wants that scenario.

    The reality of it is is that there is not the opportunity or the meritocracy some would have you believe in our current political economy.
    Don't tread on me= Don't tread on my corporate masters

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    That's a very loaded question. And a strawman... no one wants that scenario.

    The reality of it is is that there is not the opportunity or the meritocracy some would have you believe in our current political economy.
    Really it seems that nerv 14 does

  7. #587
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Right.

    Everyone had equal opportunity to rise or sink to the level they deserve.
    The top 20% of the population own 80% of the wealth.
    To be equitable, or as the Constitution states, to establish justice, they should pay 80% of the taxes.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Yes, the very heart of the Constitution:

    Secure the Blessings of Liberty.


    Which means it can't be authorizing government theft of private incomes, guarantees of minimum incomes, or any of the other socialist claptrap failed freedom stealing notions from the Left.
    That is your interpretation, not that of the courts for the last 96 years.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    [quote=Scarecrow Akhbar;1058506152]
    Your meaning is both wrong and not supported historically by the authors of the Constitution.
    My interpretation has been backed up by the courts for the last 96 years. It is what we call the rule of law.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  10. #590
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    This wasn't directed at me, but I would like to respond to it.

    Voluntary wealth redistribution can be a good thing. Use your your money to give to somebody in need and you have the satisfaction of being a good person while nobody else is required to agree with your choice or contribute to your project. That is freedom and results in a stronger, more satisfying social contract and quality of life.

    Government forced wealth redistribution is something quite different. Now the government forces you to give up property that is legally and ethically yours and give it to somebody else who may or may not use it wisely or responsibly or to good advantage. That is a form of slavery that our Founders never intended to be imposed on a free people. Once the government has the power to do that, everything you own or will ever have will be at the disposal of the government. And you are no longer free.

    Even if the government restricts such activities just enough so that the people don't rise up in rebellion, it is a hugely corrupting influence on both government and those receiving from the government.
    Just because the rich are taxed 5% more then the middle class, that doesn't make them slaves.

    The fact that a government can have different tax rates for different people doesn't mean that some individuals will be taxed at 100% (making them complete slaves). so I do not see a problem with progressive taxation.

    I agree that wealth distribution causes people to sometimes spend money for negative ends, and can cause corruption and dependence. However, not all wealth distribution does that.

    There can still be a limited government with small amounts of wealth distribution, for things like public education and unemployment insurance. It doesn't need to go overboard just because a small amount of progressive taxation is used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    You mean it makes some people happier to recieve stolen money?

    Who gives a **** if they're "happy" or not?
    because promoting happiness (among other things) is my goal of society :P you apparently have a different goal. im a utilitarian
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Because it has to be stolen from it's owner.

    Duh!

    I will not oppose any wealth re-distribution scheme that:

    1) Takes only from people promoting the scheme,
    2) Leaves the promoters of the scheme below the national poverty level,
    3) and forever forbids those promoters the opportunity to receive stolen wealth.

    If they can't put their own money where their big lying mouths are, their scams shouldn't be allowed.
    that sounds like voluntary donations, that doesn't work well enough to generate the revenue to help the poor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Here's a notion:

    The people that founded the country didn't believe it was the government's job to plan people's lives or judge how they're lived, outside of obvious criminal behaviors.

    That's what "freedom" is about.

    It's freedom from government interference.

    There's no promise that the government was going to pick up someone who falls down, not in the least.
    But why is freedom from government interference so important?

    If that is the most basic assumption you have about government, then so be it.

    But I think promoting a certain goal, like freedom of people, does not always involve the government staying out of people's lives.

    For instance, someone only has the freedom to learn how to play a piano if they either earn the money to buy a piano or they are given a piano from someone else.

    In this scheme, if the government gives someone money to buy a piano, then they are actually more free with the government involvement.


    But instead of using my example above as a rationale for completely socialism, we should use my example for freedom and your example of government staying out of people's lives to try and find a good equilibrium between the two.


    So instead of the government taxing the rich to buy me a piano, the government can use a flat tax to pay for a cultural center with a piano that poor people can practice on. That is still wealth distribution, because the poor would use the cultural center more then the rich, but I think it maximizes freedom for the most amount of people, so should be promoted.

    What is ethically wrong with this wealth distribution?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    Why should I give up what I earn because you are to lazy to work and you expect others to support you?
    see above.

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