View Poll Results: Which do you prefer:

Voters
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  • Income tax - no changes in the status quo

    39 19.80%
  • Flat tax - Everyone pays the same %

    67 34.01%
  • National sales tax - don't spend, you don't pay taxes

    47 23.86%
  • No tax - Unconstitutional - rely on private donations

    10 5.08%
  • Other - explain

    21 10.66%
  • Cookies!

    13 6.60%
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Thread: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

  1. #511
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Yes.

    You said it's impossible. I said it's better.
    Wrong again! I never said it was impossible. Just unrealistic and very impractical.

    Nobody said anything about "easy".

    We've been saying auditing a business is easier than auditing a bazillion individuals.
    Not really. Auditing individuals is largely done on a computerized basis. Specific deductions are searched for and flagged for review. You act like people are individually going through 1040s. That doesn't happen. The programs search for specific information, such as reporting sales of real estate and no matching real estate income. Auditing businesses who operate increasingly on cash basis is far more difficult as you literally have to audit inventory. Tell me how having to send out legions of auditors to physically count inventory is EASIER then having a computer scan for specific flaggable deductions.

    Since you don't wish to discuss what we say, why are you bothering to post?
    Too bad you are doing the same thing.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  2. #512
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    And who gets to decide what is or is not a necessity?
    Congress, but it should be limited to categories, not specific manufacturers; ie, it can tax TV's, it can tax "televisions, plasma", but it can't tax "televisions, plasma, Sony" differently from "televisions, plasma, Life's Good".

    However, tariff law isn't changed, so that doesn't stop congress from monkey with imports, if it really wants to.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    A flat income tax applied evenly and without equivocation across the board, even if there were a few deductions allowed in order to promote the general welfare, would be far more difficult to manipulate for political advantage.
    I want the government to get out of the habit of thinking that it can pry into my private finances at whim.

    Hence sales tax is preferred over income tax.

    Also, it's easier to decline to owe a sales tax, since the tax isn't due until I choose to spend money.

    Income taxes are due when I choose to earn money.

    By all means we need to push the bureaucrats back into their genie bottle.

    Right now the Bureaucrats are like Daffy Duck in the pit with all the treasure, jumping up and down on the genie that guarded the wealth, screaming "mine, all mine, back back, you can't have it, I'm not sharing! Mine! Mine! Mine!"

    The taxpayer is the genie, and its time we dealt with the troublesome incompetent duck.

  3. #513
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Wrong again! I never said it was impossible. Just unrealistic and very impractical.
    What's unrealistic and impractical is pretending that it's difficult to inventory a store. Every friggin' retail store every friggin' year counts it's inventory, not only for tax purposes but because that's how the annual profits are determines.

    Most firms use LIFO, which I think is a bit of a cheat, but it usually makes them look better.

    So the IRS has to audit a company and in worse cases it has to go and do an on-site inventory. BFD.

    The costs of that are outweighed by the savings of every citizen who no longer has to shell out $60-$100 or more for tax preparation, who no longer need to pay financial advisors to keep track of their IRA's, their 401(k)s, their medical accounts, their money hidden to keep eligibility for Pell Grants and all the other complete BULL**** the federal government forces citizens to make just to protect their own money from their own government.

    So let's stop pretending your argument has merit. It's infantile. An inventory is an inventory is no big deal. I've done them for K-Mart, I've done them for my own business, it's a chore. Whoopty do.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Not really. Auditing individuals is largely done on a computerized basis.
    Yeah, no one would ever think of using computers to compare a company's recieving invoices with it's shipping invoices to see if someone's pulling a fast one. Why, that would take intelligence, and that's never found in the IRS.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Specific deductions are searched for and flagged for review.
    Yeah, I know, I made a boo-boo once, or rather, my accountant failed to write it down and I'd forgotten about it so I got an audit once. No big deal, pay the owed tax, be done with it. So what?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    You act like people are individually going through 1040s.
    No. YOU'RE acting like I said that because otherwise your argument is totally weak. Actually, your argument totally weak anyway. You want to pretend that the government isn't already using computers to track what businesses are reporting and flagging various lines and independent reports from banks etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Tell me how having to send out legions of auditors to physically count inventory is EASIER then having a computer scan for specific flaggable deductions.
    It's not "easier".

    It's "better", since they're going to a business I don't own and won't be bothered by. Same as everyone else in America who doesn't own a business. You know, the VAST MAJORITY.

    Also, with sales tax being the case, there won't be any more EITC fraud. My father, the tax accountant regaled me tales of how people would come in claiming wages that were the EXACT amount needed to maximize that EITC refund.

    No chance of that happening under a National Sales Tax.

    Given the simplicity of calculating a sales tax, it's practically impossible for anyone to over pay (how many times have you overpaid your sales tax?) and the cost of processing refunds will drop to practically zero.

  4. #514
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Here's my question:

    If this type of user fee is actually designed to cover things like that, then how come state legislatures routinely double or triple the fees in years when they have budget shortfalls? Is it because the cost of maintaining the wildlife actually tripled this year, or is it because it's entirely unrelated to the cost of maintaining the wildlife and is instead used as a general revenue raising tool?
    This was in regard to hunting license fees and what they are intended to cover.

    There are a number of scenarios. I have seen the fees jacked up when there was an unusual abundance of wildlife 'targets' out there because the state knew the hunters would be flocking into the area and would be willing to pay more and it was a way to shore up revenues. I have seen the fees jacked up when there was a scarcity of wildlife reducing the number of licenses to be issued meaning there would otherwise be insufficient revenues to cover the expenses.

    But states do indeed look for ways to increase revenues when they need more money, and in my opinion, increasing fees on non essential services is less onerous than some forms of taxation because whether or not you pay the fees is voluntary.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  5. #515
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    TO: Scarecrow Akhbar:

    I am sure it was unintentional but you attributed this to me which I did not post:

    Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    Not really. Auditing individuals is largely done on a computerized basis.
    Also this:
    Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    Specific deductions are searched for and flagged for review.
    And this:
    Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    You act like people are individually going through 1040s.
    And this:
    Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    Tell me how having to send out legions of auditors to physically count inventory is EASIER then having a computer scan for specific flaggable deductions.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  6. #516
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    A form of flat tax, the "Fair Tax" is what I endorse. It ensures all pay tax and taxes those who make more, are here illegally, and still preserves the progressive nature of our current tax code. It does away with those loopholes and takes away the political control our reps exploit for votes.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."

  7. #517
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Reality Land View Post
    A form of flat tax, the "Fair Tax" is what I endorse. It ensures all pay tax and taxes those who make more, are here illegally, and still preserves the progressive nature of our current tax code. It does away with those loopholes and takes away the political control our reps exploit for votes.
    So how does the "Fair Tax" work? Is this Huckabee's version?
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    So how does the "Fair Tax" work? Is this Huckabee's version?
    He supports it yes. But the "Fair Tax" was written and proposed by Congressman John Linder as H.R. 25. It was the result of research groups looking for a better way to tax. Many universities contributed to it and it is currently supported by a group known as the AFFT. (Americans for fair tax.)

    http://www.fairtaxblog.com/cat/afft-updates/

    The number of lawmakers supporting it is growing each year.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."

  9. #519
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Here's my question:

    If this type of user fee is actually designed to cover things like that, then how come state legislatures routinely double or triple the fees in years when they have budget shortfalls? Is it because the cost of maintaining the wildlife actually tripled this year, or is it because it's entirely unrelated to the cost of maintaining the wildlife and is instead used as a general revenue raising tool?
    The people who use those "things" are a smaller group than the rest of the state, exploiting them in tough times is pretty easy.

    My state has been pretty good with those fees though, I think it still costs $7 year long fishing license.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  10. #520
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    { A National sales tax plan}
    It's "better", since they're going to a business I don't own and won't be bothered by. Same as everyone else in America who doesn't own a business. You know, the VAST MAJORITY.
    That same vast majority get the bulk of their goods at a large business though. Places that know how to make money are always going to learn better ways of cheating. One way is to pass on the added expense of hiring new workers (to count inventory) would be to rase prices. They would then have to worry about some kind of "loss prevention" (ie: un skilled temporary workers who steal the most valuable, smallest inventory to offset the low wedges they will be paid and long hours they will be working.) That means more skilled workers watching their backs, some kind of system that would prove theft in a court of law, law suits on both sides (ie: excessive force by loss prevention vs innocent worker / or sneaky worker vs honest company.) Those prices get passed down and all of a sudden your paying twenty bucks for a tooth brush.

    Just to be clear I am in favor of a national sales tax plan. I am only saying that plan is not going to be easy.

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