View Poll Results: Which do you prefer:

Voters
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  • Income tax - no changes in the status quo

    39 19.80%
  • Flat tax - Everyone pays the same %

    67 34.01%
  • National sales tax - don't spend, you don't pay taxes

    47 23.86%
  • No tax - Unconstitutional - rely on private donations

    10 5.08%
  • Other - explain

    21 10.66%
  • Cookies!

    13 6.60%
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Thread: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

  1. #451
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    While I agree that the flat tax would remove ability to use taxes for economic stimulus, and I continue to think about that, it would also remove ability of politicians to use taxes to manipulate votes.
    The ability to manipulate taxes pales in comparison to manipulation via spending.

    I can't see how it would be the least bit regressive, however.
    It is when you discuss it in the context of marginal utility. Taking $10 from someone who only has $100 is pretty painful and needs that $10 for basic necessities compared to someone who has a million and taking $100,000 from them who doesn't need it to live. Essentially the really poor person's marginal utility of every dollar is higher then the rich person's.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  2. #452
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I agree that the sales tax would be ridiculously complex, would not simplify the system in the least, and would likely swell the bureaucracy that we already have. And, as previously stated, it is far more regressive than any other proposed system.

    While I agree that the flat tax would remove ability to use taxes for economic stimulus, and I continue to think about that, it would also remove ability of politicians to use taxes to manipulate votes.

    I can't see how it would be the least bit regressive, however.
    The national sales tax would be simple. All the infrastructure is already in place and most things already have a sales tax. All you have to do is raise the rate. The IRS could then be dismanted.
    Sales tax has been around forever. It is not ridiculously complex at all.

  3. #453
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    It is when you discuss it in the context of marginal utility. Taking $10 from someone who only has $100 is pretty painful and needs that $10 for basic necessities compared to someone who has a million and taking $100,000 from them who doesn't need it to live. Essentially the really poor person's marginal utility of every dollar is higher then the rich person's.
    Easy. Necessities aren't taxed.

  4. #454
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Easy. Necessities aren't taxed.
    That would work on a national sales tax system not on a national flat income tax system.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    That would work on a national sales tax system not on a national flat income tax system.
    Sorry, I thought you were discussing a national sales tax.

  6. #456
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    The national sales tax would be simple. All the infrastructure is already in place and most things already have a sales tax. All you have to do is raise the rate. The IRS could then be dismanted.
    Sales tax has been around forever. It is not ridiculously complex at all.
    I take it you are either a full time student or a public worker no?

    First of all, there is significant cheating in reporting of sale tax to state revenue departments that exists today. Generally, for sales of goods, state auditors either compare a firm's sales and reported taxes with a known benchmark, namely a clean business or they audit the inventory. Most states never had the funds to fully state such departments in the first place. So do you realize you are saying that the poor system of ensuring compliance at the state level could be used nationally in realistic, simple and accurate way?

    Tell me, what department at the federal level is going to hire literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of auditors to ensure compliance if we get rid of the IRS?

    It gets worse for services. Many professional services have internal discounting systems on rates. They'd simply report the discounted rate to the government while charging a higher rate to their clients. You'd have to audit many of them to ensure compliance.

    While you are correct that sales taxes have been around you ignore that cheating on sales taxes has also been around forever. States right now cannot assure complete honest compliance. What on Earth makes you think the federal government can do it?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  7. #457
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    The main reason to end a progressive income tax is to castrate a dem congress that gets power by promising those in the lower brackets that they will be given everything they want if they vote for dems because the dems will only raise the top brackets to pay for that pandering.

    If there was a purely flat tax, everyone would pay more if they voted for dem socialists



  8. #458
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    The main reason to end a progressive income tax is to castrate a dem congress that gets power by promising those in the lower brackets that they will be given everything they want if they vote for dems because the dems will only raise the top brackets to pay for that pandering.
    You know, reasonable people don't hold extreme views like that. By the way, I like how you ignored how the 2004 nomination campaign had republicans all preaching that to voters. Vote for me and I'll get you everything back.

    Still, better to tax then to borrow.

    If there was a purely flat tax, everyone would pay more if they voted for dem socialists
    Except there will never be a pure flat tax. There isn't a pure flat tax anywhere.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  9. #459
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    I take it you are either a full time student or a public worker no?

    First of all, there is significant cheating in reporting of sale tax to state revenue departments that exists today. Generally, for sales of goods, state auditors either compare a firm's sales and reported taxes with a known benchmark, namely a clean business or they audit the inventory. Most states never had the funds to fully state such departments in the first place. So do you realize you are saying that the poor system of ensuring compliance at the state level could be used nationally in realistic, simple and accurate way?

    Tell me, what department at the federal level is going to hire literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of auditors to ensure compliance if we get rid of the IRS?

    It gets worse for services. Many professional services have internal discounting systems on rates. They'd simply report the discounted rate to the government while charging a higher rate to their clients. You'd have to audit many of them to ensure compliance.

    While you are correct that sales taxes have been around you ignore that cheating on sales taxes has also been around forever. States right now cannot assure complete honest compliance. What on Earth makes you think the federal government can do it?
    I take it you must still be in kindergarten. There is more tax cheating in the present income tax system than there is in sales tax reporting. A business won't stay in business long if they cheat on sales tax.
    States have a reliable system of sales tax collecting already in place. It would be easier to keep the thousands of businesses honest than the millions of individual tax payers that cheat. If a business cheats they lose their license to operate. Simple..
    The states would collect the sales tax and forward the federal share to them. It is simple and would be much easier to implement than the present system. The machinery is already in place.
    State sales taxes work just fine.

  10. #460
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    I take it you must still be in kindergarten.
    Your insults need work. Note how my observation was based on your ignorance of the workings of the business world where yours was a pedestrian attack on general intelligence. Try again and put some effort into it for a change.

    There is more tax cheating in the present income tax system than there is in sales tax reporting.
    At an individual personal income tax level yes. Not so much on a business level. That's partially due to the nature of how business income flows through. Change that and you'll see changes as to how people cheat. It is somewhat easier to go after individuals rather then businesses.

    A business won't stay in business long if they cheat on sales tax.
    Because....

    States have a reliable system of sales tax collecting already in place.
    Are you serious? States have awful systems to sale tax collecting. States cannot deal well with cash based accounting! Under the table transactions occur all of the time and states have virtually no way of stopping them short of auditing inventory. Saying I'm in Kindergarten and then making that statement is pretty ironic. Tell me, if the systems are so reliable, why is there billions in unreported state sale tax from New York to Florida to Hawaii?

    Do you know the difference between a credit sale and a cash sale?

    It would be easier to keep the thousands of businesses honest than the millions of individual tax payers that cheat. If a business cheats they lose their license to operate. Simple
    LOL. No, it wouldn't be easier to keep thousands of businesses honest. States right now cannot enforce compliance on cash sales. Only a fool thinks that without a huge army of federal auditors that a national sales tax is viable. And you have to PROVE first that a business was cheating. How are you going to do that without a huge army of auditors?

    The states would collect the sales tax and forward the federal share to them.
    Which they don't do well as it is. It is amusing how you think that states who cannot enforce compliance could be the mechanism for national sales tax. Yes, let's take a dysfunctional system that misses billions in sales tax and use it as the foundation for a national system. That couldn't possibly go wrong at all!

    It is simple and would be much easier to implement than the present system. The machinery is already in place.
    Ah yes. Machinery that doesn't work well, doesn't catch sales, has a real problem with cash sales, doesn't deal with the problem of professional service discounts and use as the foundation for a national system.

    State sales taxes work just fine.
    Clearly, you are either a public worker or a full time student. Obviously, you've never worked in the private sector a day in your life.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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