View Poll Results: Which do you prefer:

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  • Income tax - no changes in the status quo

    39 19.80%
  • Flat tax - Everyone pays the same %

    67 34.01%
  • National sales tax - don't spend, you don't pay taxes

    47 23.86%
  • No tax - Unconstitutional - rely on private donations

    10 5.08%
  • Other - explain

    21 10.66%
  • Cookies!

    13 6.60%
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Thread: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

  1. #421
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "Warren Buffett, the third-richest man in the world, has criticised the US tax system for allowing him to pay a lower rate than his secretary and his cleaner.

    Speaking at a $4,600-a-seat fundraiser in New York for Senator Hillary Clinton, Mr Buffett, who is worth an estimated $52 billion (26 billion), said: “The 400 of us [here] pay a lower part of our income in taxes than our receptionists do, or our cleaning ladies, for that matter. If you’re in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent.”

    Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent."
    Buffett blasts system that lets him pay less tax than secretary - Times Online
    So it looks like this is due to Warren Buffett making all of his "income" from investment, such that he is paying the capital gains tax rate of 15% on his "income", versus his receptionist paying income tax of 30%.

    It is an argument of wealth creation versus income. Wealth creation helps the economy grow and provide jobs and so it is taxed at a lower rate so as not to suppress this growth. This is it's advantage. As a result, the super wealthy don't pay as high a percent in taxes. This is the disadvantage. Like all things, it has its pluses and minuses. So what is the cost benefit analysis?
    Last edited by reefedjib; 01-16-10 at 01:20 AM.

  2. #422
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    A flat tax can be shaped sp that it is not regressive. For example raising the cut-in on taxes. So for the first 30k, no tax. Also if you roll in payroll taxes which are the most regressive parts of our taxes that would actually make a flat tax more progressive.
    Not sure what you mean by roll in payroll taxes? Not enough detail here to tell if your idea could generate the same revenue as our current system without shifting more of the burden from the wealthy to the middle class.
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    So it looks like this is due to Warren Buffett making all of his "income" from investment, such that he is paying the capital gains tax rate of 15% on his "income", versus his receptionist paying income tax of 30%.

    It is an argument of wealth creation versus income.
    Exactly!
    That is why the fairtax has not been embraced by the middle class.
    Wealth creation helps the economy grow and provide jobs and so it is taxed at a lower rate so as not to suppress this growth.
    Bush's tax cuts did not provide jobs, He ended his term with job rates plummeting, and our economy heading for a depression.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Bush's tax cuts did not provide jobs, He ended his term with job rates plummeting, and our economy heading for a depression.
    His tax cuts did provide jobs, as the economy grew strongly for 7 of his 8 years. His tax cuts, and the corresponding wealth creation did not prevent the boom-bust cycle from rearing it's ugly head. This does not disqualify the fact that lower taxes on investment creates wealth and jobs.

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    His tax cuts did provide jobs, as the economy grew strongly for 7 of his 8 years. His tax cuts, and the corresponding wealth creation did not prevent the boom-bust cycle from rearing it's ugly head. This does not disqualify the fact that lower taxes on investment creates wealth and jobs.
    I've not seen it in my lifetime. The trickle did not make it down to the middle class my friend.

    Regardless, if you think you can convince the middle class they need to shoulder more of the tax burden to provide additional cuts for the wealthy, have at it?
    Last edited by Catawba; 01-16-10 at 02:29 AM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    A flat tax can be shaped sp that it is not regressive. For example raising the cut-in on taxes. So for the first 30k, no tax. Also if you roll in payroll taxes which are the most regressive parts of our taxes that would actually make a flat tax more progressive.
    Then it's not a flat tax.

    Duh.

    It's graduated, and hence regressive, since by "regressive" I mean unamerican.

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    [QUOTE=Catawba;1058489259]I've not seen it in my lifetime. The trickle did not make it down to the middle class my friend. [/qutoe]

    Of course it didn't.

    No one in the middle class was employed while Reagan was president. The only jobs he created were on Wall Street.

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "Warren Buffett, the third-richest man in the world, has criticised the US tax system for allowing him to pay a lower rate than his secretary and his cleaner.

    Speaking at a $4,600-a-seat fundraiser in New York for Senator Hillary Clinton, Mr Buffett, who is worth an estimated $52 billion (26 billion), said: “The 400 of us [here] pay a lower part of our income in taxes than our receptionists do, or our cleaning ladies, for that matter. If you’re in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent.”

    Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent."
    Buffett blasts system that lets him pay less tax than secretary - Times Online

    When Warren Buffet follows the lead of Tolstoy, he'll become someone who should be listened to on how vast wealth should be treated.

    But, other than that, what he was saying was not that he was taxed too little, but that he either didn't pay his secretaries enough, or they were taxed too much.

    Given that Buffet is very successful and no punitive taxations on success can touch him now, why are you be slavishly following his words on how the want-to-be successfuls should be punished?

    But again, his words mean nothing until he follows Tolstoy.

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Not sure what you mean by roll in payroll taxes? Not enough detail here to tell if your idea could generate the same revenue as our current system without shifting more of the burden from the wealthy to the middle class.
    Payroll taxes are largely social security and unemployment taxes. Both of these taxes start at the first dollar of income and then max out at different levels.

    I am not sure about the exact numbers these days. The big one is social security. The tax rate is something like 7.5% and it taxes income between 0-90K. So people over the limit stop paying the tax.

    These are what is called regressive taxes as they tax people who earn less more as a % of their income.

    So using the numbers above as an example, if someone makes the average income of lets say 45K per year their social security tax rate is 7.5% while if their income is 180K or 4x the average the social security tax rate is 3.75%.

    Hope that helps.

  10. #430
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Payroll taxes are largely social security and unemployment taxes. Both of these taxes start at the first dollar of income and then max out at different levels.

    I am not sure about the exact numbers these days. The big one is social security. The tax rate is something like 7.5% and it taxes income between 0-90K. So people over the limit stop paying the tax.

    These are what is called regressive taxes as they tax people who earn less more as a % of their income.

    So using the numbers above as an example, if someone makes the average income of lets say 45K per year their social security tax rate is 7.5% while if their income is 180K or 4x the average the social security tax rate is 3.75%.

    Hope that helps.
    You make a good point.

    I remain a strong advocate of gradually shifting social security out of the Federal government--it would have to be as gradual as it has grown into an unsustainable entitlement to avoid causing untold suffering and to avoid breaking faith with those entitled to receive it. And the unequal and oppressive taxation that will be necessary to sustain it simply cannot be justified in a nation founded on principles of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Still, if the wealthy cannot collect the same percentage of what they contribute to social security as anybody else, they shouldn't be required to pay more than anybody else.

    If the wealthy are to be 'punished' for their success at all, then do it at the deduction end. Put a cap on how much of a single salary and benefits can be deducted as a business expense. That would be neither unequal or manipulative.

    In a way, a graduated tax system is also equal when applied without prejudice across the board. The problem with the current tax system is that almost half of working Americans don't pay any federal income tax at all. It is a dangerous situation and entirely corrupting to the system when almost half of the voters bear no consequence for their vote. They will almost certainly keep voting in the people who will continue to give them a free ride while punishing the productive for their success.

    A flat tax is the only fair and uncorrupting and non regressive form of taxation that will truly simplify the process and take the politics out of it.

    A national sales tax won't.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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