View Poll Results: Which do you prefer:

Voters
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  • Income tax - no changes in the status quo

    39 19.80%
  • Flat tax - Everyone pays the same %

    67 34.01%
  • National sales tax - don't spend, you don't pay taxes

    47 23.86%
  • No tax - Unconstitutional - rely on private donations

    10 5.08%
  • Other - explain

    21 10.66%
  • Cookies!

    13 6.60%
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Thread: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

  1. #411
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    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    I feel that more liberal economics would give people democratic control over political as well as economic matters, rather than the system we have now(not dissing capitalism, but the current implication of it) that concentrates the control of these areas into the hands of a small group of people at the top of the socio-economic ladder(CEO bonuses? sure you can be a fan of the market, but seriously?). It means giving you control over your workplace rather than in the hands of some board of trustees, the stock holders, or the bosses who are only interested in profit and not your livelihood. People need the right to a job with a living wage, decent housing, health care, education, etc. And I'd rather do that through that absence of the state than through "nationalization". I'm a weird breed I really am, I feel like I'm so socially left and internationalist, but when it comes to economics im just all over the place, and neither side can completely convince me.
    I consider myself, generally, better educated than my peers in real life.
    (co-workers, neighbors etc.)

    I see them spend money that they earn on useless or wasteful things like lottery tickets and beer, at the same time many of them purposefully avoid marriage to get food stamps, free medical care for their kids.

    There are a lot of disincentives associated with liberal tax policy and social welfare.
    Just my observation of course.

    This may appeal to your social-political interests, [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism]Distributism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  2. #412
    I invented Human Nature
    Z3n's Avatar
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I consider myself, generally, better educated than my peers in real life.
    (co-workers, neighbors etc.)

    I see them spend money that they earn on useless or wasteful things like lottery tickets and beer, at the same time many of them purposefully avoid marriage to get food stamps, free medical care for their kids.

    There are a lot of disincentives associated with liberal tax policy and social welfare.
    Just my observation of course.

    This may appeal to your social-political interests, Distributism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Interesting. I mainly go here for international discussion and social issues, like I said, economics is not my forte.
    Don't tread on me= Don't tread on my corporate masters

  3. #413
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    Catawba's Avatar
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post

    The other poor persons I work and live around do not have those kinds of financial management skills, which is exactly why they will stay poor.
    Those are examples of the socioeconomic background differences of which I spoke.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #414
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    no one's ever heard the expression "you can squeeze blood out of a turnip"
    That was my point, no one has ever heard of such a bogus tax scheme as the "Fair tax", that will shift more of the tax burden from the wealthy to the lower and middle classes.

    The goal isn't to make tax breaks for the wealthy, the goal is to an egalitarian society in which all pay their share.
    Before Bush's tax cuts, the wealthy used to pay more than the middle and lower classes. They now pay less of their income than do the middle class.

    The reason the progressive taxes were instituted, and have been maintained through 96 years of both parties in power, is because the public understands the fairness of a system that taxes those who own most of the wealth at a greater rate than someone with less wealth.

    Since most of the voters fall into the category of the middle and lower classes, I don't see where the support for a consumption tax will come from.

    Any ideas?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  5. #415
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That was my point, no one has ever heard of such a bogus tax scheme as the "Fair tax", that will shift more of the tax burden from the wealthy to the lower and middle classes.
    Before socialism, no one ever heard of anything as stupid as punishing success, either.

    What's your point again?


    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Before Bush's tax cuts, the wealthy used to pay more than the middle and lower classes.
    That's manifestly untrue.

    Ever since socialism infested this nation, the wealthy have been the targets of punitive taxation, Bush altered the rates, but the wealthy individual still paid more money to the friggin' thieving government than anyone else.

    Since the Fourteenth Amendment insists on equal protection before the law, the individual citizen should either pay equal dollar amounts of tax, ie, everyone chips in ten bucks to the kitty, or everyone pays the same freakin' rate.

    Anything else, ie this so-called "Progressive", which means "socialist class envy" bull**** is both unamerican and unconstitutional, and justifiable only on emotional class envious grounds.

    I don't suffer from class envy, hence the arguments in favor of this socialist bull**** don't work on me.

    They don't work on anyone capable of rational thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Any ideas?
    Yes, you should move to a country that doesn't want successful citizens if you're not happy here.

  6. #416
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That was my point, no one has ever heard of such a bogus tax scheme as the "Fair tax", that will shift more of the tax burden from the wealthy to the lower and middle classes.



    Before Bush's tax cuts, the wealthy used to pay more than the middle and lower classes. They now pay less of their income than do the middle class.

    The reason the progressive taxes were instituted, and have been maintained through 96 years of both parties in power, is because the public understands the fairness of a system that taxes those who own most of the wealth at a greater rate than someone with less wealth.

    Since most of the voters fall into the category of the middle and lower classes, I don't see where the support for a consumption tax will come from.

    Any ideas?
    The support from a consumption tax is either because people are emotional, and they don't like the gov taking their work... or because they realize how good a sales tax is for the economy.

    I support a sales tax for the economic benefits, not for any principle.

    A sales tax means that someone's income will only be taxed when they consume something, which provides an incentive for that person to invest their money instead of consuming. So in the long run, it is much better for this country, and therefore everyone in it, if we had more of a sales tax. A consumption tax would help us from getting into this debt mess again...

    Also, a sales tax scheme would include a pre-bate which would give everyone a check each month. That check would function so someone's sale taxes would be repaid if someone only consumes at the poverty level, so even the poor could do better with a sales tax.


    I do agree with the problem about how regressive a sales tax is though. So ideally, a consumption tax should also include a low level tax on the upper middle class and above, along with a strong inheritance tax to help the middle class have less of a tax burden. I really think a sales tax to reduce the income tax a fair amount is probably the best compromise.



    (actually, I even oppose a flat tax more then either our current system of a sales tax, because it doesn't have the investment promotion in a sales tax and it isn't progressive)

  7. #417
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That was my point, no one has ever heard of such a bogus tax scheme as the "Fair tax", that will shift more of the tax burden from the wealthy to the lower and middle classes.





    Any ideas?
    A flat tax can be shaped sp that it is not regressive. For example raising the cut-in on taxes. So for the first 30k, no tax. Also if you roll in payroll taxes which are the most regressive parts of our taxes that would actually make a flat tax more progressive.

  8. #418
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    Dirty Harry's Avatar
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by nerv14 View Post
    A sales tax means that someone's income will only be taxed when they consume something, which provides an incentive for that person to invest their money instead of consuming. So in the long run, it is much better for this country, and therefore everyone in it, if we had more of a sales tax. A consumption tax would help us from getting into this debt mess again...
    )
    Seeing as our economy is based on consumerism, if everyone saved their money and didn't buy anything the economy would come to a standstill. Remember when Bush told us to get out there and spend money?

    I do support a national sales tax but still expect people to buy things since their income will be higher.

  9. #419
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post

    Ever since socialism infested this nation, the wealthy have been the targets of punitive taxation, Bush altered the rates, but the wealthy individual still paid more money to the friggin' thieving government than anyone else.
    "Warren Buffett, the third-richest man in the world, has criticised the US tax system for allowing him to pay a lower rate than his secretary and his cleaner.

    Speaking at a $4,600-a-seat fundraiser in New York for Senator Hillary Clinton, Mr Buffett, who is worth an estimated $52 billion (£26 billion), said: “The 400 of us [here] pay a lower part of our income in taxes than our receptionists do, or our cleaning ladies, for that matter. If you’re in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent.”

    Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent."
    Buffett blasts system that lets him pay less tax than secretary - Times Online
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  10. #420
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "Warren Buffett, the third-richest man in the world, has criticised the US tax system for allowing him to pay a lower rate than his secretary and his cleaner.

    Speaking at a $4,600-a-seat fundraiser in New York for Senator Hillary Clinton, Mr Buffett, who is worth an estimated $52 billion (£26 billion), said: “The 400 of us [here] pay a lower part of our income in taxes than our receptionists do, or our cleaning ladies, for that matter. If you’re in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent.”

    Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent."
    Buffett blasts system that lets him pay less tax than secretary - Times Online
    Yes, I've seen that quote. I don't believe him. I don't believe Warren Buffett, one of the most financially-savvy people on the planet, did not have anyone working on minimizing his tax burden. I call it a lie.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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