View Poll Results: Which do you prefer:

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  • Income tax - no changes in the status quo

    39 19.80%
  • Flat tax - Everyone pays the same %

    67 34.01%
  • National sales tax - don't spend, you don't pay taxes

    47 23.86%
  • No tax - Unconstitutional - rely on private donations

    10 5.08%
  • Other - explain

    21 10.66%
  • Cookies!

    13 6.60%
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Thread: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

  1. #371
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by rally2xs View Post
    Why tax income? Income taxes are taxes on prosperity. As Ronald Reagan said, "If you want less of something, tax it."

    That's how our country has been going - less and less prosperity. As foreigners have become more and more able to compete, they are overwhelming the USA, and siphoning off all the good jobs that made the middle class prosperous. It is getting so you need a masters degree to be prosperous now. And, I think it'll get worse.

    Study the Fair Tax, a tax on consumption. It has many advantages, and would, I believe, bring jobs back from overseas.
    Do you think taxation is at an all time high or something?

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    [quote=Catawba;1058484536]
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post

    I am not aware of the Supreme Court determining current Congressional duties to be unconstitutional. Do you have a link for that?
    SCOTUS does not arbitrarily choose issues to rule on. SCOTUS rules on cases filed with the Supreme Court by others.

    The Constitution started out pretty clear on what the duties of government were and what government could not do. That has become somewhat ambivalent and fuzzy over the years and some unfortunate precedents have been set by courts including the Supreme Court.

    Because of that, I think it will take a Constitutional Amendment to further clarify what the Federal government is and is not authorized to do. That would not be unprecedented either as we have had numerous amendments to clarify this or that when the original Constitution did not anticipate issues that would come up in subsequent generations.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  3. #373
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by EmpiricalTruth View Post
    Do you think taxation is at an all time high or something?
    In relative terms, that could be true.

    We have a near-40% tax rate on business. The rest of the world has been reducing their business tax rates. Companies are setting up operations in Ireland (Ireland???? C'mon...) 'cuz of their best-in-Europe 12.5% business tax rate.

    So, we and Japan, with a near-identical almost 40% business tax rate are hung out with respect to the rest of the world. Japan's big advantage is a "work-for-peanuts" labor force, while we have this high cost of living environment that demands a high wage just to live even modestly.

    So... it could be true, in a relative sense, that the taxes are at an all time high, in comparison to the rest of the world. And, its the business taxes that really count in this - they are what is hammering the job growth here.

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by rally2xs View Post
    In relative terms, that could be true.

    We have a near-40% tax rate on business. The rest of the world has been reducing their business tax rates. Companies are setting up operations in Ireland (Ireland???? C'mon...) 'cuz of their best-in-Europe 12.5% business tax rate.

    So, we and Japan, with a near-identical almost 40% business tax rate are hung out with respect to the rest of the world. Japan's big advantage is a "work-for-peanuts" labor force, while we have this high cost of living environment that demands a high wage just to live even modestly.

    So... it could be true, in a relative sense, that the taxes are at an all time high, in comparison to the rest of the world. And, its the business taxes that really count in this - they are what is hammering the job growth here.
    That's not true, the motivation behind Japanese workers is they get compensated well and have a "cradle to the grave" relationship with the keiretsu(benefits are given upfront and insurance coverage is not pussyfooted around with)
    Don't tread on me= Don't tread on my corporate masters

  5. #375
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    [quote=Harry Guerrilla;1058484643]Tax rates are part of a number of factors that drive prosperity.
    Even then it has to be sustainable.

    Exactly, that is why a consumption tax makes no sense.

    Since when is the middle class scraping by?

    "Rich Buying Again, But Middle Class Still Hurting"

    "The poor have no assets to protect them against inflation.

    The middle class have some assets to protect them against inflation.

    The rich have most of their assets protected against inflation.

    Those with Government contracts are protected against inflation because they receive the newly created money through government contracts. This is value indirectly stolen from the poor and middle class and given to the rich.

    Consider this: you are poor and you would like to save up cash for a large purchase. As you save money, you reach a point when the cash you have in savings loses value faster than the rate at which you can save.

    Each year new money is created out of nothing and put into existence. This is an indirect tax on the poor and middle class or anyone who is not hedged against inflation. This is an immoral, though lawful, system."
    How Does Inflation Hurt the Poor and Middle Class?


    He or she may not be doing anything that deserves that much, it's all subjective.
    You mean like the hedge fund manager's that earn 400 times what a high school history teacher makes with no more education than the history teacher.


    Living wages are subjective, what one person can live on in one state, another can't live on in that very same state, in that very same town.
    That's why it is a MINIMUM wage. States where it is more expensive to live can set their wages higher.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  6. #376
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Does that make it inherently wrong?
    Yes, for me personally, it is morally wrong because the lower classes own less of the wealth. Putting that aside however, you will never gain public support for a tax system that will place a greater burden on the middle class.



    "The latest data from the Internal Revenue Service show that more than half of all federal individual income taxes—50.8 percent—are paid by the five percent of taxpayers who earn the most. In 1996, the latest year for which data are available, this top five percent consisted of 6.0 million earners whose adjusted gross incomes (AGI) were higher than $101,202."

    "Even among this prosperous group, the highest earners paid the lion's share. The top one percent of earners in the country are paying close to a third of all the taxes collected. That's approximately 1.2 million earners who paid 32.3 percent of 1996's federal individual income taxes."

    The Tax Foundation - Top Five Percent of Taxpayers Pay Over Half of Total Federal Individual Income Taxes
    We have been over this already and I have shown that the top 20% own 80% of the wealth.

    It is a tax rate cut and considering that the middle class doesn't pay for half of the government it wants, why should they get any kind of break?
    If you think you can sell a tax plan to the middle class that puts a greater tax burden on them because they deserve a higher tax burden, have at it!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Yes, for me personally, it is morally wrong because the lower classes own less of the wealth. Putting that aside however, you will never gain public support for a tax system that will place a greater burden on the middle class.





    We have been over this already and I have shown that the top 20% own 80% of the wealth.



    If you think you can sell a tax plan to the middle class that puts a greater tax burden on them because they deserve a higher tax burden, have at it!
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  8. #378
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    SCOTUS does not arbitrarily choose issues to rule on. SCOTUS rules on cases filed with the Supreme Court by others.
    Right, that's my point, no one has successfully challenged our progressive tax system in the last 96 years.

    Because of that, I think it will take a Constitutional Amendment to further clarify what the Federal government is and is not authorized to do. That would not be unprecedented either as we have had numerous amendments to clarify this or that when the original Constitution did not anticipate issues that would come up in subsequent generations.
    Only one thing wrong with the solution you see to your problem, it takes popular support to get a constitutional amendment passed. There is no majority support for a tax system that shifts more of the tax burden to the middle class.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #379
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by EmpiricalTruth View Post
    Do you think taxation is at an all time high or something?
    Taxation is way higher than a government operating under the Constitution would require.

    And that is all that matters.

    Taxes are too high.

    Spending is too high.

    Cut both, and cut both so there's zero deficit.

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Right, that's my point, no one has successfully challenged our progressive tax system in the last 96 years.
    When did we get a progressive tax system? All I've ever seen is a socialist tax system.

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