View Poll Results: Which do you prefer:

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  • Income tax - no changes in the status quo

    39 19.80%
  • Flat tax - Everyone pays the same %

    67 34.01%
  • National sales tax - don't spend, you don't pay taxes

    47 23.86%
  • No tax - Unconstitutional - rely on private donations

    10 5.08%
  • Other - explain

    21 10.66%
  • Cookies!

    13 6.60%
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Thread: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

  1. #361
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    30% much less 23% consumption tax/National sales tax/ Fair tax will not bring in the revenues we are getting with the current system. It will be closer to 50% as has already been shown previously in the thread here:


    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/63479-income-tax-flat-tax-national-sales-tax-no-tax-15.html#post1058473187



    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1058473215
    Don't see a link to the actual articles, and these were posted by mbig, who hasn't a clue about how the Fair Tax really works. I'd really have to read the original stuff, and no, not from some guy making an Op-Ed to the New York Times, to have any confidence that those aren't simply political hit pieces.

    For instance, the 1st line of the 1st one says:

    "Does adding 30% to the price of every house sold sound like a good idea to you?"

    That's a lie in the very 1st sentence. Not every house sold would be FairTaxed. Only brand new houses would be FairTaxed, and that also makes no effort to figure in the fact the the prices of all the new houses would fall because of the 35% corporate income tax that would NOT be collected on every piece of material, and every construction company / subcontractor that worked on the house. _All_ those people would be charging lower prices, before the Fair Tax is applied.

    And, it doesn't matter what the tax rate needs to be for parity, the statutory rate of the Fair Tax is 23%. If it isn't enough, well, the Fair Tax law sunsets in 7 years if the 16th Amendment is not repealed. If the Fair Tax isn't working, just keep the 16th Amendment, and go back to the income tax. Simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Just using common senses it doesn't stand to reason that everyones taxes can be lowered and the government have the same revenue coming in.
    That would be true, if everyone's taxes are lowered. But, no one is claiming that. Lots of people who are not paying taxes at all, or are underpaying taxes, would start paying their fair share.

    Last year, there were only 142 million income tax returns from a country with about 305 million citizens and probably 20 million illegal aliens. How can that be? Because, there are a hideous amount of people that are NOT PAYING INCOME TAX. The income tax is one of the easiest taxes around to avoid. Anyone can do it, from partially hiding money by doing jobs for cash and not reporting it, to under-reporting and flat out hiding the whole amount, especially in overseas areas. There's $10 - $14 trillion in American money that is overseas, and it is there, both legally and illegally, to avoid the income tax.

    Collecting taxes on a whale of a lot of people that are not paying income taxes now, and under-paying income taxes, by taxing them when they buy their fancy cars and big screen TVs, and even nailing the illegal aliens when they buy a Big Mac, will cause the rate to be the predicted 23%.

    And, lets not forget the tourists. The Fair Tax taps the tourist trade of between 45 and 56 million tourists each year. If they each spend $5K while they're here, and that is probably low, well, that is a lot of extra money at 23%. Its billions, in fact.

    The Fair Tax causes taxes to go down for the people that are currently obeying the law, and causes taxes to go up for those that are not, as well as opening some new sources.

  2. #362
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGirlNextDoor View Post
    Which would you prefer: (over simplistic - just a poll)

    Income tax - nothing changes and the tax system as we know it continues on as always - changing and morphing month to month

    Flat tax - Revisions to current tax code in effect doing away with all other forms of taxation except for a low percentage of flat tax across the board

    National Sales tax - Revisions to current tax code in effect doing away with all other forms of taxation except for a nation wide sales tax - if you spend nothing, you pay nothing

    No tax - The tax codes as written currently are un-Constitutional and therefore should be abolished entirely. In place of taxes, we would rely on donations by private citizens/corporations.
    National sales tax excluding food and toilet paper.

  3. #363
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    National sales tax excluding food and toilet paper.
    The Fair Tax gives every citizen with a social security number (sorry about that, illegal aliens), a "prebate" equal to the Fair Tax rate (23%) times their poverty level. If they're single, their poverty level is about $11K. If they're in a family of 4, it's about $26K. Everyone gets the prebate, from your favorite street person all the way up to Bill Gates.

    The prebate will pay for the Fair Tax on everything a person buys up to the poverty level. That would be a poor person's food, toilet paper, rent / mortgage, everything.

    So, I think the Fair Tax is really what you're talking about.

  4. #364
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by rally2xs View Post
    The Fair Tax gives every citizen with a social security number (sorry about that, illegal aliens), a "prebate" equal to the Fair Tax rate (23%) times their poverty level. If they're single, their poverty level is about $11K. If they're in a family of 4, it's about $26K. Everyone gets the prebate, from your favorite street person all the way up to Bill Gates.

    The prebate will pay for the Fair Tax on everything a person buys up to the poverty level. That would be a poor person's food, toilet paper, rent / mortgage, everything.

    So, I think the Fair Tax is really what you're talking about.
    No, I just want a sales tax on everything, but food and toilet paper. Simple as that.

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    No, I just want a sales tax on everything, but food and toilet paper. Simple as that.
    I always enjoyed the Dirty Harry movies...

  6. #366
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by rally2xs View Post
    I didn't see a link to the actual articles
    "Here you go, the figures used are from the fairtax.org website:
    According to the group's figures, at 1995 levels a new sales tax would have to raise $1.36 trillion to replace all Federal income taxes, payroll taxes and estate and gift taxes. Under its plan, the group says, taxable spending would be $4.6 trillion (after accounting for rebates to partly protect lower-income families).So, $1.36 trillion divided by $4.6 trillion would be the required sales tax rate. Fine, except that $1.36 trillion divided by $4.6 trillion is not 23 percent. It's about 30 percent.

    It turns out that the group's purported 23 percent tax rate is misleading and hypothetical. It came up with that number by dividing the sales tax by the cost of a purchase plus the tax. So if the tax on a $100 purchase is $30, the group prefers to call it a 23 percent "tax inclusive rate" ($30 divided by $130). Ever hear of computing a sales tax like that?

    The fact that the group's sales tax, even by its own figures, entails a 30 percent tax rate is only the beginning of the math problems. The group's backup materials also assert that almost a third of its projected sales-tax revenue is supposed to come from taxes the Government will pay to itself. Build a road, pay yourself a tax. Buy some planes for the Air Force, pay yourself some more. And so on.

    Unfortunately, that shell game won't work. Without these phantom governmental tax payments, the sales tax rate would have to jump to 42 percent to break even.

    A bit more digging reveals that a quarter of the remaining sales taxes are supposed to be paid on things like church services, free care at veterans hospitals and a variety of hard-to-tax financial services like free checking accounts. If we discount the taxes on these items, the sales tax rate would have to climb to an astronomical 56 percent to break even."

    The 23 Percent Solution

    And, it doesn't matter what the tax rate needs to be for parity, the statutory rate of the Fair Tax is 23%. If it isn't enough, well, the Fair Tax law sunsets in 7 years if the 16th Amendment is not repealed. If the Fair Tax isn't working, just keep the 16th Amendment, and go back to the income tax. Simple.
    There will be no need for that as no congress in their right mind will pass this crazy tax scheme that will further shift the tax burden to the lower classes that will not produce half the money needed to operate the government. Nice pipe dream for the rich I suppose.

    That would be true, if everyone's taxes are lowered. But, no one is claiming that. Lots of people who are not paying taxes at all, or are underpaying taxes, would start paying their fair share.
    Yeah all those people making less than $200,000 would finally have to pay their fair share. And the popular support for this will come from where?

    How did the GOP candidate for President fare in the 2008 primary that had the fairtax on his platform?

    "Consumption taxes are by nature regressive because the poor must spend more of their money than the rich – while it is the rich who do most of the saving."
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...x/tax.htm#cons
    Last edited by Catawba; 01-13-10 at 01:00 AM.
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  7. #367
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Total crap, the poor aren't taxed. Besides, if less money comes in I guess the spendthrifts in Congress will have to lower their expectations.
    Honestly, to rein in a spendthrift Congress, I think we'll need a Constitutional amendment that restricts Congress's duties to a strict interpretation of what the Constitution dictates and b) otherwise prohibits any disbursement of taxpayer monies or any Federal policy that does not benefit all citizens, rich and poor alike, equally.

    If we did that, we would immediately reduce the needs of the Federal government by a substantial percentage and thus reduce the amount of revenues necessary to fund it, and we eliminate 99% of the corruption that is now built into the system and that is demonstrated in those who dispense government benevolence and those who receive it.

    It would require easing into it to avoid unnecessary pain and suffering, but we sure as heck could turn it around and start the process.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    [quote=AlbqOwl;1058484478]
    I think we'll need a Constitutional amendment that restricts Congress's duties to a strict interpretation of what the Constitution dictates
    I am not aware of the Supreme Court determining current Congressional duties to be unconstitutional. Do you have a link for that?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #369
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Which Americans are not interested in Prosperity?
    Tax rates are part of a number of factors that drive prosperity.
    Even then it has to be sustainable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That is what the middle class pay. How do you justify shifting more of the tax burden to the middle class who are barely scraping by now?
    Since when is the middle class scraping by?
    Some may be scraping by because they got over their heads in debt, you can't cure that type of thing with lower taxes.

    I'm lower income and I'm not scraping by.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Who, if they have the ability to do a full time job to the satisfaction of their employer does not deserve $7.25 an hour? Even if some are teenagers living at home saving for college which now costs more and more since the states have cut education budgets so much.
    He or she may not be doing anything that deserves that much, it's all subjective.
    Someone may be happy to be a full time Walmart greeter making less than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    We are talking about a bare bones minimum wage here. We are not talking $20 an hour ok. States can then adjust it higher in those states where the cost of living is higher.
    Your living wage you cited earlier is more than I make and I have a family of 4.
    I don't use any government programs and have the ability to save money for a house as well as retirement.

    Living wages are subjective, what one person can live on in one state, another can't live on in that very same state, in that very same town.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  10. #370
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    From the point of view of the middle class they are regressive because some of the tax burden would be shifted from the upper classes to the middle classes.
    Does that make it inherently wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The middle class feel they already pay their fair share. The numbers of the National sales tax, or Fair tax that some call it, have made it clear that those making less than $200,000 will see a tax increase.

    The middle class already pays their fair share, and then some, considering the percentage of wealth they own.
    "The latest data from the Internal Revenue Service show that more than half of all federal individual income taxes—50.8 percent—are paid by the five percent of taxpayers who earn the most. In 1996, the latest year for which data are available, this top five percent consisted of 6.0 million earners whose adjusted gross incomes (AGI) were higher than $101,202."

    "Even among this prosperous group, the highest earners paid the lion's share. The top one percent of earners in the country are paying close to a third of all the taxes collected. That's approximately 1.2 million earners who paid 32.3 percent of 1996's federal individual income taxes."

    The Tax Foundation - Top Five Percent of Taxpayers Pay Over Half of Total Federal Individual Income Taxes

    After seeing this, do you believe that 5% of the population uses 50.8% of government services to incur that much in tax payments?

    Do the top 1% use nearly 1/3 of government services?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    But not an equal tax cut. The rich got a bigger cut in addition to the elimination of estate taxes. And this was put on the tab for future tax payers to pay, so the middle class ends up paying back that small pittance of a tax break they got so the rich could get a larger one.
    How can it ever be equal, they will always pay more in taxes even if the rate is universally 10% they will always pay more in taxes if the rate is cut.
    They always pay more than anyone else.

    So when it is cut they will always be the group that gets the biggest dollar amount, because they pay the biggest dollar amount.

    They did not get any special treatment with a tax rate cut, everyone who actually pays taxes, got the cut.

    It is a tax rate cut and considering that the middle class doesn't pay for half of the government it wants, why should they get any kind of break?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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