View Poll Results: Which do you prefer:

Voters
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  • Income tax - no changes in the status quo

    39 19.80%
  • Flat tax - Everyone pays the same %

    67 34.01%
  • National sales tax - don't spend, you don't pay taxes

    47 23.86%
  • No tax - Unconstitutional - rely on private donations

    10 5.08%
  • Other - explain

    21 10.66%
  • Cookies!

    13 6.60%
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Thread: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

  1. #351
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Yes, they are in fact opposites.
    Not at all, opposites would be having lower and middle tax payers paying the highest margin while having rich earners paying the lowest margin.

    I should of phrased it differently, they are considered regressive because they aren't punitively progressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    They are sold as being less onerous on the middle class which does not betray that they will be more onerous on the middle class. That is why they are regressive from the point of view of the middle class.
    I haven't made that claim, the middle class should pay their fair share.
    They don't, they pay less than half of those costs and represent at least half of the population.

    It's wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    As they should since they own a majority of the wealth. The problem is that with the National sales tax more burden will be shifted to the middle class.
    As it should be, they should be paying their share of the costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Who do you think the 3 trillion dollar war to conquer the middle east for their oil is going to benefit the most? Or the 1 trillion in tax cuts for the rich that Bush gave away?
    The tax cuts benefited everyone, everyone got a tax rate cut.

    The lowest tax rates were reduced from 15% to 10% but because the rich pay the majority of taxes they benefited the most while the poor pay practically no taxes they benefited the least.

    You can't reduce taxes for people who don't pay taxes in the first place.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  2. #352
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Prosperity isn't what this is about
    Which Americans are not interested in Prosperity?

    having to forfeit 1/3 of your income to pay taxes on services you don't use isn't reasonable, rational or fair.
    That is what the middle class pay. How do you justify shifting more of the tax burden to the middle class who are barely scraping by now?
    Yep, but what if someone doesn't need $7.25 an hour to live?
    What if their personal living wage is lower than $7.25?
    Who, if they have the ability to do a full time job to the satisfaction of their employer does not deserve $7.25 an hour? Even if some are teenagers living at home saving for college which now costs more and more since the states have cut education budgets so much.

    There is no such thing as a static living wage for everyone.
    We are talking about a bare bones minimum wage here. We are not talking $20 an hour ok. States can then adjust it higher in those states where the cost of living is higher.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #353
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Not at all, opposites would be having lower and middle tax payers paying the highest margin while having rich earners paying the lowest margin.
    From the point of view of the middle class they are regressive because some of the tax burden would be shifted from the upper classes to the middle classes.


    I haven't made that claim, the middle class should pay their fair share.
    The middle class feel they already pay their fair share. The numbers of the National sales tax, or Fair tax that some call it, have made it clear that those making less than $200,000 will see a tax increase.

    The middle class already pays their fair share, and then some, considering the percentage of wealth they own.

    The tax cuts benefited everyone, everyone got a tax rate cut.
    But not an equal tax cut. The rich got a bigger cut in addition to the elimination of estate taxes. And this was put on the tab for future tax payers to pay, so the middle class ends up paying back that small pittance of a tax break they got so the rich could get a larger one.
    Last edited by Catawba; 01-12-10 at 04:30 PM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #354
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Freedom isn't free.

    The status quo is fine, people just like the hype of Boston-tea-party-esque protests and false libertarianism.

    Don't wanna spend money? Fine, that's the freedom you have in this country. As long as you live here though, you are enjoying that freedom as well as the freedom to change your mind, but it should cost you. Yeah that sounds bad, but realistically the opposite is probably worse.


  5. #355
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Cilogy View Post
    Freedom isn't free.
    I heard it was $2.99 at Wal-mart.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  6. #356
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I heard it was $2.99 at Wal-mart.
    Nah, walmart can charge whatever it wants for freedom, its the only company left
    Don't tread on me= Don't tread on my corporate masters

  7. #357
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The middle class feel they already pay their fair share. The numbers of the National sales tax, or Fair tax that some call it, have made it clear that those making less than $200,000 will see a tax increase.
    If the Fair Tax were passed? No such thing.

    The Fair Tax is 23% embedded, or figured the other way, 30% of the price of the item alone.

    Now, I am square in the middle of the middle class. For 2008, I sent $17K to Washington. That's a lotta money.

    However, I was sending $1,400 / month to a mortgage on a house that I bought that was existing, so it would not have been Fair Taxed. That $1,400 / month is $16,800 that I didn't spend where it would get Fair Taxed.

    Additionally, I saved 10% of my gross in a 401K-like plan. That's another $10K I didn't spend.

    Each month, I sent in about $500 to my pension plan from where I work, another $6,000 that I didn't spend.

    And then there's the Medicare tax, that was about $100 / mo., or $1,200 / yr.

    So, my spending money leftover after the non-taxable spending and saving under the Fair Tax was $51,000.

    As a single person, I would get 23% of the $11K single-person poverty rate, which is $2,530. So, I'm that much richer.

    So, anyway, 23% of my spending at $51K is $.11,730. That's $5,270 less than my $17K I sent to DC, and of course, there's the $2,530 prebate that I also have in my pocket.

    Now, you may say that I should calculate it as 30%. OK, 30% of $51,000 is $16,300. The $17,000 I sent to DC, plus the $2,530 prebate, equals $19,530, so I'm still paying $3,230 less.

    Then there's the price advantage of the Fair Tax to consider. When the income taxes, all of them, are removed from the prices of goods manufactured here, they should fall anywhere from about 10% to 22%. If 10%, then that $51,000 I'm spending would be only about $45,900 in order to buy the same stuff. If 22%, then I only have to spend $39,780 to buy the same stuff.

    So, there's no such thing as me paying more tax $$$ if the Fair Tax is passed. In fact, the numbers are fairly dramatically in my favor. Depending on how much the price of goods manufactured here falls, the savings can be quite substantial.

  8. #358
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    I want a simplified progressive income tax.

    A flat tax is too regressive against the poor, while a national sales tax won't bring in enough tax revenue.
    Total crap, the poor aren't taxed. Besides, if less money comes in I guess the spendthrifts in Congress will have to lower their expectations.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  9. #359
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by rally2xs View Post
    If the Fair Tax were passed? No such thing.

    The Fair Tax is 23% embedded, or figured the other way, 30% of the price of the item alone.

    Now, I am square in the middle of the middle class. For 2008, I sent $17K to Washington. That's a lotta money.

    However, I was sending $1,400 / month to a mortgage on a house that I bought that was existing, so it would not have been Fair Taxed. That $1,400 / month is $16,800 that I didn't spend where it would get Fair Taxed.

    Additionally, I saved 10% of my gross in a 401K-like plan. That's another $10K I didn't spend.

    Each month, I sent in about $500 to my pension plan from where I work, another $6,000 that I didn't spend.

    And then there's the Medicare tax, that was about $100 / mo., or $1,200 / yr.

    So, my spending money leftover after the non-taxable spending and saving under the Fair Tax was $51,000.

    As a single person, I would get 23% of the $11K single-person poverty rate, which is $2,530. So, I'm that much richer.

    So, anyway, 23% of my spending at $51K is $.11,730. That's $5,270 less than my $17K I sent to DC, and of course, there's the $2,530 prebate that I also have in my pocket.

    Now, you may say that I should calculate it as 30%. OK, 30% of $51,000 is $16,300. The $17,000 I sent to DC, plus the $2,530 prebate, equals $19,530, so I'm still paying $3,230 less.

    Then there's the price advantage of the Fair Tax to consider. When the income taxes, all of them, are removed from the prices of goods manufactured here, they should fall anywhere from about 10% to 22%. If 10%, then that $51,000 I'm spending would be only about $45,900 in order to buy the same stuff. If 22%, then I only have to spend $39,780 to buy the same stuff.

    So, there's no such thing as me paying more tax $$$ if the Fair Tax is passed. In fact, the numbers are fairly dramatically in my favor. Depending on how much the price of goods manufactured here falls, the savings can be quite substantial.
    30% much less 23% consumption tax/National sales tax/ Fair tax will not bring in the revenues we are getting with the current system. It will be closer to 50% as has already been shown previously in the thread here:


    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/63479-income-tax-flat-tax-national-sales-tax-no-tax-15.html#post1058473187



    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1058473215

    Just using common senses it doesn't stand to reason that everyones taxes can be lowered and the government have the same revenue coming in.
    Last edited by Catawba; 01-12-10 at 09:41 PM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  10. #360
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Besides, if less money comes in I guess the spendthrifts in Congress will have to lower their expectations.
    Different topic, but it would make a good thread.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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