View Poll Results: Which do you prefer:

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  • Income tax - no changes in the status quo

    39 19.80%
  • Flat tax - Everyone pays the same %

    67 34.01%
  • National sales tax - don't spend, you don't pay taxes

    47 23.86%
  • No tax - Unconstitutional - rely on private donations

    10 5.08%
  • Other - explain

    21 10.66%
  • Cookies!

    13 6.60%
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Thread: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

  1. #331
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    First, DON'T ****ING YELL AT ME AGAIN, BITCH!

    Second, Fascism is collectivized. The left is not just communism or socialism or progressivism or fascism. In both communism and fascism the perfect individual is exalted.

    Third, screw you, I am going skiing. Be back tonight.
    Fascism is anything but collectivized. You think that Jews and aryans called each other Comrades in Nazi Germany?
    Don't tread on me= Don't tread on my corporate masters

  2. #332
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    First, DON'T ****ING YELL AT ME AGAIN, BITCH!

    Second, Fascism is collectivized. The left is not just communism or socialism or progressivism or fascism. In both communism and fascism the perfect individual is exalted.

    Third, screw you, I am going skiing. Be back tonight.
    Claiming that fascism is a child of the left is deliberate stupidity and unwillingness of the right to take responsibility for its own black sheep.

    Where ever fascism has arose it has been fighting workers rights and crushed unions. It was not unions who funded Hitler; it was capitalists and it was not the USSR who put Pinochet in Power but the US. Fascism has many times been proven a useful tool for the capitalist class to fight socialism.

    The only similarity between fascism and socialism is that the fascist ideology addresses the class issue which contemporary rightists just want to forget. But the fascist approach to solve the class issue is fundamentally different from the socialist. While socialism is all about abolishing class society fascism is about justifying it. The fascist notion of national unity is meant to make workers forget about class struggle and instead feel like they are chosen because of their ethnicity or religion. Because they are made to feel part of the same chosen group as the capitalists they don't direct their anger against them but against The Enemy whomever it might be.

    So while socialists want to abolish class structures fascists want to lock them in place.

    The fall of the Berlin Wall and the revelation of the crimes committed in the name of socialism has forced the left to confront its own authoritarian tendencies. It has been a good thing for the left and has made contemporary socialism more mature and responsible. It is a shame for the right that it has never been forced to do the same and confront itself with fascism, apartheid and other crimes committed in the name of capital accumulation. It would suit the right to confront its own demons. Alas this is not likely to happen; instead rightists try to rub off their own dirt on the left.
    The poor complain; they always do
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    Our system brings reward to all
    At least all those who matter.

  3. #333
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    How does that equal to no contribution which was what your previous claim was?
    I didn't say they contributed nothing, they do need to pay for the share they use though.

    It creates perverse incentives otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The FairTax is a consumption tax in the form of a national retail sales tax on new goods and services.
    I know, I was even a supporter of it at one time but the bureaucracy would still be large because of the prebate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Exactly, consumption tax would be less onerous on the wealthy and more onerous on the middle class.
    Not really, the rich would still pay more than everyone else.
    They spend more than everyone else.


    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That is one of the things the health care reform will address by reducing Medicare/Medicaid waste and fraud.
    Ummm well, they haven't done anything to cut those types of things.

    They say they have but it's just not true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    And don't forget about the taxpayers trillion dollar transfer of wealth to the rich during the bailouts.
    That went to banks, I'm pretty sure the majority of the rich did not benefit from that like your making it seem.
    Not every rich person is employed by banks and investment brokerage houses.


    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Oh, we are speaking of the poor now rather than the middle class? OK, I suggest we start by paying a living wage to full time workers, so working people do not have to rely on the government for subsistence.
    The middle class can receive those benefits just like the poor can.
    We are talking about both though, both use more than they pay for.

    Living wages are subjective, what one person can live on another can't and it mostly based on wants.

    Some people do not do anything worth a living wage.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 01-12-10 at 01:26 PM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  4. #334
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    Fascism is anything but collectivized. You think that Jews and aryans called each other Comrades in Nazi Germany?
    Fascism is statist, it can be either left or right in it's political stance.

    Fascism attempts to control both industry and labor, just like we have seen with state communists.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  5. #335
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    While one can argue that both fascism and communist at empirical levels offer the same thing, but there are a few, absolutely ideologically polarizing factors.
    Do you think the man who's face is being kicked in cares if the boot belongs to a fascist, a communist, or some other form of socialist?

    No, all he sees is that the particular variant of socialism has produced a regime that's kicking him.

    In capitalism he at least has his freedom and thus a chance to better his position in life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    Communists are godless
    No, Marx is their god.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    internationalists( one world government?),
    Funny, so are socialsts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    communitarians(identity is irrelevant-- UNION of soviet socialist republics)
    Just like the socialists and their "It Takes a Really Stupid Villager to Believe that Socialist Nonsense" nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    Fascists are usually religious( catholic fascism in Italy, Christianity in general under Hitler), nationalists(without question; pride in state), and individuals( hey, fascism is great if you are part of the identity group that is being promoted--the aryans)
    And socialists all believe in socialism, which is a religion.

    why are you trying to drawing signficant distinction from insignificant points?

    Fascism/Communism/Liberalism/Socialism all the other non-Capital-isms deny the freedom of the individual to own his own body and command what he does with it.

    So, if it ain't capitalism, it's evilism.

    If you're not a capitalist, explain why you support slavery.

    It's that simple.
    Last edited by Scarecrow Akhbar; 01-12-10 at 01:33 PM.

  6. #336
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    money is a small price to pay for the welfare of the poor
    Fine.

    Glad you feel that way.

    Use your money, leave mine alone.

  7. #337
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    explain to me how a living wage surpresses hiring.
    duh!

    When employers have to pay more to get the same thing, they decide to hire less and avoid the hassle.

  8. #338
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I also find it amusing that you don't even bat an eyelash at the fact that the article acknowledges the general consensus among economists that mandated wage increases decrease overall employment.
    It used to be the general consensus that the earth was flat as well.

    David Card and Alan B. Krueger have already made national news with their pathbreaking research on the minimum wage. Here they present a powerful new challenge to the conventional view that higher minimum wages reduce jobs for low-wage workers. In a work that has important implications for public policy as well as for the direction of economic research, the authors put standard economic theory to the test, using data from a series of recent episodes, including the 1992 increase in New Jersey's minimum wage, the 1988 rise in California's minimum wage, and the 1990-91 increases in the federal minimum wage. In each case they present a battery of evidence showing that increases in the minimum wage lead to increases in pay, but no loss in jobs.

    A distinctive feature of Card and Krueger's research is the use of empirical methods borrowed from the natural sciences, including comparisons between the "treatment" and "control" groups formed when the minimum wage rises for some workers but not for others. In addition, the authors critically reexamine the previous literature on the minimum wage and find that it, too, lacks support for the claim that a higher minimum wage cuts jobs. Finally, the effects of the minimum wage on family earnings, poverty outcomes, and the stock market valuation of low-wage employers are documented. Overall, this book calls into question the standard model of the labor market that has dominated economists' thinking on the minimum wage. In addition, it will shift the terms of the debate on the minimum wage in Washington and in state legislatures throughout the country.

    Reviews:

    "The Card-Krueger work is essentially correct: the minimum wage at levels observed in the United States has had little or no effect on employment. At the minimum, the book has changed the burden of proof in debates over the minimum, from those who stressed the potential distributional benefits of the minimum to those who stress the potential employment losses."--Richard B. Freeman, Journal of Economic Perspectives

    "Card and Krueger didn't just question the conventional wisdom; they attacked it in a novel and powerful way. Instead of concocting a mathematical model and `testing' it with advanced statistical techniques, which is what most economists call research, they decided to test the theory in the real world. . . . The work of Card and Krueger was worth a hundred theoretical models in The American Economic Review."--John Cassidy, The New Yorker

    "David Card and Alan Krueger have written a book that represents a phenomenal amount of careful and honest research and that will be a classic in the minimum wage literature and also in the broader field of empirical labor economics.... A model of how to do good believable research, this book will be influential for a long time."--Paul Osterman, Industrial and Labor Relations Review

    "Clearly, this book should be read by any economist who wants to stay abreast of substantive, high level debates within the profession.... The book already has assumed an important position within the field of labor economics, and significant research in years to come is likely to revolve around its principle thesis."--K. A. Couch, Journal of Economics
    Card, D. and Krueger, A.B.: Myth and Measurement: The New Economics of the Minimum Wage.
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  9. #339
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by rally2xs View Post
    Supposing this is true, is it a good thing to simply "have more jobs?" I mean, I found a pay stub from one of my Dad's jobs during the 30's depression. He was making 38 cents an hour. Would it be a good thing to simply remove the minimum wage, and allow employers to beat up workers like that again?

    So, you've got full employment - I mean something like 2.9% jobless rate - and... nobody's got any money left over to buy new cars, big-screen TV's, maybe not even an Ipod. Maybe people are demanding that their workplace install showers, so they can get cleaned up before they go to work, because there's no shower where they live, which is under the railroad bridge on the other side of town.

    There's something to be said, I think, for making it illegal to beat up workers with predatory wages anywhere in the USA. If you can't pay someone $7.50 an hour, then maybe the enterprise you have in mind isn't really worth doing.
    Indeed, the minimum wage helped create a middle class.

    "We are morally outraged by the number of people living in poverty in the United States, and believe that now is the time to give hard-working low-wage workers a raise and take the first step toward a true living wage for America's workers… We appreciate the commitment made by the leadership of the 110th Congress to address the woefully inadequate federal minimum wage. We will continue to raise our voices on behalf of "the least of these" and proclaim that a job should keep you out of poverty, not keep you in it”— The Most Rev. Katharine Jefferts Schori, Presiding Bishop, The Episcopal Church; The Reverend Dr. Stan Hastey, Executive Director, The Alliance of Baptists; The Reverend Dr. Clifton Kirkpatrick Stated Clerk, The General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.); Bishop Roy Riley, Chair, The Evangelical Lutheran Church Conference of Bishops; and one thousand other U.S. religious leaders (January 8, 2007)

    “The federal minimum wage increase of 1996/97 was followed by the best low-wage labor market outcomes in decades. When that proposed increase was under discussion, opponents predicted massive job losses among those affected by the increase... Instead, the employment rates of the least advantaged workers soared to unprecedented levels, poverty rates fell to historic lows, particularly for minority populations, the least skilled workers, and single mothers. Low wages rose in step with productivity growth for the first time in almost thirty years. Note that I do not claim that the federal minimum wage increase was solely responsible for these outcomes… But Congress should take note: the 1996/97 increase complemented these conditions; it did not preclude them.” –Jared Bernstein, Economist, Economic Policy Institute (January 10, 2007)

    "We all lose when American workers are underpaid. Whether as business owners or employees, women have a significant stake in providing for their families and their communities. More than a quarter of all working women hold service, production, transportation and material moving occupations, which are often subject to low pay, minimum wage earnings. The majority of women are living without a spouse. By not paying workers a living wage, we assure that a mother working hard to support her family will not be able to make ends meet." - Margot Dorfman, CEO, the U.S. Women's Chamber of Commerce (January 29, 2007)"
    Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2007 | TheMiddleClass.org
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  10. #340
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    It used to be the general consensus that the earth was flat as well.

    David Card and Alan B. Krueger have already made national news with their pathbreaking research on the minimum wage.
    And since they've concluded that minimum wage doesn't lead to unemployment, why aren't they advocating that minimum wage be raised to $250,000 a year?

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