View Poll Results: Which do you prefer:

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  • Income tax - no changes in the status quo

    39 19.80%
  • Flat tax - Everyone pays the same %

    67 34.01%
  • National sales tax - don't spend, you don't pay taxes

    47 23.86%
  • No tax - Unconstitutional - rely on private donations

    10 5.08%
  • Other - explain

    21 10.66%
  • Cookies!

    13 6.60%
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Thread: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

  1. #291
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    Workers are NOT a commodity to be bought and sold.
    Labor is absolutely a commodity that's bought and sold.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post


    You raise the cost of employing people, employers do less of it. Simple math. You buy less of anything that gets more expensive.
    "That argument, however, rests on the simplistic observation that some of the states with high minimum wages also have high unemployment rates. Without more examination, this observation is as useful in understanding state job markets as noting that joblessness has been on the rise in New York since the last time the Yankees won the World Series. It might be true, but it doesn't mean one is causing the other."

    "recent studies with improved methodologies have reached the opposite conclusion. In general, there is no valid, research-based rationale for believing that state minimum wages cause measurable job losses. Making the extreme case that the job losses are severe enough to show up in a noticeably elevated state unemployment rate is a wild extension of a largely unfounded theory."

    The national perspective

    "The connection between minimum wages and unemployment looks even weaker when all 12 states with minimum wages above the federal level are considered (see Table 1):

    * Many states without minimum wages set above the federal level (including Michigan, Illinois, South Carolina, and Texas) also had high unemployment rates in December 2003.
    * Hawaii, Delaware, and Vermont, three states with higher minimum wages, were among the 15 states with unemployment rates less than 5% (the national average was 5.7%).
    * Of the 12 states with higher minimum wages, eight saw a smaller increase in unemployment between 2000 and 2003 than the national average."

    Employment and the Minimum Wage—Evidence from Recent State Labor Market Trends
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #293
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Its never been shown to be a disincentive to hiring.
    Yes it has.

    The Employment Impact of a Comprehensive Living Wage Law, Evidence from California | EPI Study

    http://papers.nber.org/papers/w9702.pdf

    The Employment Effects of Living Wage Laws

    But it has been shown that the Bush tax cuts led to a greater disparity between the upper and lower classes.
    No it hasn't, per the facts provided throughout this thread which you continue to ignore.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  4. #294
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "That argument, however, rests on the simplistic observation that some of the states with high minimum wages also have high unemployment rates. Without more examination, this observation is as useful in understanding state job markets as noting that joblessness has been on the rise in New York since the last time the Yankees won the World Series. It might be true, but it doesn't mean one is causing the other."

    "recent studies with improved methodologies have reached the opposite conclusion. In general, there is no valid, research-based rationale for believing that state minimum wages cause measurable job losses. Making the extreme case that the job losses are severe enough to show up in a noticeably elevated state unemployment rate is a wild extension of a largely unfounded theory."

    The national perspective

    "The connection between minimum wages and unemployment looks even weaker when all 12 states with minimum wages above the federal level are considered (see Table 1):

    * Many states without minimum wages set above the federal level (including Michigan, Illinois, South Carolina, and Texas) also had high unemployment rates in December 2003.
    * Hawaii, Delaware, and Vermont, three states with higher minimum wages, were among the 15 states with unemployment rates less than 5% (the national average was 5.7%).
    * Of the 12 states with higher minimum wages, eight saw a smaller increase in unemployment between 2000 and 2003 than the national average."

    Employment and the Minimum Wage—Evidence from Recent State Labor Market Trends
    A study which purports to show (looking only at correlation to unemployment rates and no other possible factors) that raising a minimum wage doesn't cause comapnies to fire people in good economic times (judging by unemployment rates stated) has what do with how it will affect companies' decisions to hire people in an uncertain economy?

    You're responding to a different argument.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  5. #295
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    The effects of artificially increased wages on employment are manifestly obvious if you simply use your head.

    Say I'm the CEO of a massive company. I have a budget that balances revenues against outlays. My outlays are divided among things like labor, parts, rent, electricity, etc. The passage of a "living wage" would increase my labor costs per employee, so I have to bring things back into balance. Short of magically cutting my rent or parts costs, there are only two ways I could do this.

    First, I can balance for that increase in outlays by increasing revenues in tandem. This would be done by passing on the additional costs to consumers. Since any successful company already prices their products to achieve maximum profit, this will not work. Any artificial increase will result in reduced sales and further damage the company's balance sheet.

    Since that won't work, the other way that I can balance that increase in per employee costs is by cutting my total number of employees. This would be done through layoffs or hiring freezes, with the extra work shifted to the retained employees. Given that we see this happen on a daily basis among companies that need to cut costs, this is the obvious result.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  6. #296
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    The effects of artificially increased wages on employment are manifestly obvious if you simply use your head.

    Say I'm the CEO of a massive company. I have a budget that balances revenues against outlays. My outlays are divided among things like labor, parts, rent, electricity, etc. The passage of a "living wage" would increase my labor costs per employee, so I have to bring things back into balance. Short of magically cutting my rent or parts costs, there are only two ways I could do this.

    First, I can balance for that increase in outlays by increasing revenues in tandem. This would be done by passing on the additional costs to consumers. Since any successful company already prices their products to achieve maximum profit, this will not work. Any artificial increase will result in reduced sales and further damage the company's balance sheet.

    Since that won't work, the other way that I can balance that increase in per employee costs is by cutting my total number of employees. This would be done through layoffs or hiring freezes, with the extra work shifted to the retained employees. Given that we see this happen on a daily basis among companies that need to cut costs, this is the obvious result.
    Yes, but you have to keep in mind -- companies (ALL companies) are limitless sources of cash for which no requirement, restriction, or tax could possibly have a deleterious effect or unintended consequence. And if it does, it's only because the tophat-wearing owners are hoarding more and more for themselves and their mustache wax.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  7. #297
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Yes, but you have to keep in mind -- companies (ALL companies) are limitless sources of cash for which no requirement, restriction, or tax could possibly have a deleterious effect or unintended consequence. And if it does, it's only because the tophat-wearing owners are hoarding more and more for themselves and their mustache wax.
    And even if there is a negative effect on profits, that's okay. Companies should not be organized for the sole purpose of earning money for their shareholders, they should be organized for the purpose of achieving amorphous and ever-changing social goals.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  8. #298
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And even if there is a negative effect on profits, that's okay. Companies should not be organized for the sole purpose of earning money for their shareholders, they should be organized for the purpose of achieving amorphous and ever-changing social goals.
    Well of course -- the cost of all requirements, restrictions, taxes, assessments, etc., always come out of profit and profit only -- it never affects employment, consumer prices, or anything else.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  9. #299
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Your first link looks at one state, the research looked at one rate and did not consider other factors related to unemployment. The report I referenced studied 12 states and did consider the other factors.

    Your second link shows the net effect is positive -

    "We confirm our earlier findings that business assistance living wage laws boost wages of the lowest-wage workers, at the cost of some disemployment, but on net reduce urban poverty. Second, we expand the analysis of distributional effects beyond looking just at the poverty threshold. We do not find that living wages increase the depth of poverty among families that remain poor, and we find that families somewhat below and somewhat above the poverty line are also helped by living wages. Finally, we suggest that the poverty reductions generated by living wages may stem from income gains for individuals with higher wages or skills who are nonetheless in poor families, rather than for the lowest-wage or lowest-skill individuals. "

    Your third link is an opinion piece.


    Do you honestly prefer government assistance over a full-time worker earning a living wage?
    Last edited by Catawba; 01-12-10 at 02:34 AM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  10. #300
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Do you honestly prefer government assistance over a full-time worker earning a living wage?
    Total strawman. Has nothing to do with the point being made in all this.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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