View Poll Results: Which do you prefer:

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  • Income tax - no changes in the status quo

    39 19.80%
  • Flat tax - Everyone pays the same %

    67 34.01%
  • National sales tax - don't spend, you don't pay taxes

    47 23.86%
  • No tax - Unconstitutional - rely on private donations

    10 5.08%
  • Other - explain

    21 10.66%
  • Cookies!

    13 6.60%
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Thread: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

  1. #201
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    FairTaxFraud.com

    Another simple crusher from AJC. More at the link.
    http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/o...2.html]Atlanta Opinion *| ajc.com

    Farcical FairTax is anything but
    Atlanta Journal Constitution ---- 06/02/08

    You don't have to have a degree in economics to see the failings of the proposed FairTax[/b]....
    New houses would be taxed; Medical care would be taxed; Food would be taxed. Even the Federal government would pay the tax to ITSELF on goods and services.
    [............]
    Then there's the matter of fairness. At Fairtax.org, you'll find a Calculator that purports to tell you how much you'll save in taxes under the FairTax. I can almost Guarantee that after you plug in your financial information, you will be Promised significant tax savings.
    My wife and I certainly would pay a Lot less. Based on their recently released tax returns, so would George and Laura Bush. Under the FairTax, their tax bill would fall by $54,000 on an income of more than $900,000.

    That's interesting, because FairTax advocates claim the tax would raise just as much money as the current system. So if a couple with a million-dollar income pays a Lot less, who pays more?


    After repeated experiments with the calculator, I FINALLY found that household. A couple with two children, a Rented home and income of $40,000 would pay $860 more.
    In other words, to balance out the $54,000 tax cut for someone making a Million dollars a year, we would have to Raise taxes on 62 couples trying to raise their family on $40,000 a year.-
    And they call it a FairTax?
    [.......]
    But the bottom line is, none of it matters anyway.
    FairTax supporters are being played for suckers by politicians who have signed their names in support of the proposal but have no intention of enacting such a Crazy idea.
    Look at the record. Linder's "Fair Tax Act" has been introduced in every Congress since 1999, drawing scores of co-sponsors. For 8 of those years, Republicans controlled both the House and Senate. Yet with all those co-sponsors and all that time under GOP control, FairTax legislation never got so much as One subcommittee Vote on its provisions.

    That's because Nobody, including its co-sponsors, takes it Seriously.
    And if the idea was ignored when Republicans were in control, what does that say about its future under Democrats?[.....]
    Last edited by mbig; 01-09-10 at 03:46 AM.
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  2. #202
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    You were saying that having the poor not paying taxes is more or less like what we already have, I inferred welfare.
    Not necessarily welfare. Things like the EITC, etc.

    Well if the corporate elite don't have to pay for something like the UPKEEP of GM for example, why not bail them out? Corporate welfare, just as bad.
    Again, I'm sorry but I don't know what you're trying to say. Are you under the impression that GM was kept afloat to protect monied interests?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  3. #203
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Not necessarily welfare. Things like the EITC, etc.



    Again, I'm sorry but I don't know what you're trying to say. Are you under the impression that GM was kept afloat to protect monied interests?
    yes, GM a company that literally should have failed, was propped up. ignoring that is just plain naive

  4. #204
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    yes, GM a company that literally should have failed, was propped up. ignoring that is just plain naive
    I'm pointing out that the auto bailout was not designed to protect rich people, but rather the employees and larger economy. Many of the corporate bondholders took a haircut thanks to the bailout.

    How you can analogize this to social welfare for poor people is beyond me.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  5. #205
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I'm pointing out that the auto bailout was not designed to protect rich people, but rather the employees and larger economy. Many of the corporate bondholders took a haircut thanks to the bailout.

    How you can analogize this to social welfare for poor people is beyond me.
    capitalism. survival of the fittest. you might like that no?

  6. #206
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    Re: FairTaxFraud.com

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    Another simple crusher from AJC. More at the link.
    Spells it out very clearly. Good post! Now it will be completely ignored by the fringe right.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  7. #207
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    I've been trying to spread this message for years,
    decades even. Why stop now?

    I voted for "Other"

    I would like to see a radically revised income tax system
    along these approximate lines:

    • Much higher personal exemption of about $15k-20k

    • No other exemptions or deductions

    • Flat rate of 10-15% for income of over personal exemption of
      up to $1 million (Flat rate to include Social Security)

    • Additional surtax of 5% on income over $1 million



    I am not sure how to handle a few items such as:

    • Capital gains (I lean toward not taxing them)

    • Inheritance (I lean toward not taxing it)



    The benefit of this system is its great simplicity.

    No more H&R Block and other tax preparation overhead,
    even for the largest corporations. Everyone's tax could
    be submited on a postcard-sized document, and any idiot
    with a calculator could prepare his own taxes.

    The flat tax system has I think been employed with great
    success in countries as disparate as Russia and Singapore,
    i.e. it has been fully tested and proven to work.

  8. #208
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    As pointed out above, the rich actually pay a much higher percentage of their income in federal income taxes than do the middle or lower classes.
    I have heard the super rich gets away with 5% tax if they do it right and exploit all the loopholes, and they can easily afford to do that.

    Either way, more or less, the only fair thing is that everyone pays the same % tax.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  9. #209
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    Re: FairTaxFraud.com

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    Farcical FairTax is anything but
    Atlanta Journal Constitution ---- 06/02/08

    You don't have to have a degree in economics to see the failings of the proposed FairTax[/b]....
    New houses would be taxed;
    And existing housed wouldn't. Those buying new houses generally have the $$$ to pay such a tax. Poorer people generally buy existing housing.

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    Medical care would be taxed;
    Medical care is already taxed up the wazoo by taxes that would go away under the fair tax. Every nurse a doctor hires, every orderly, everybody is paying social security and medicare that costs that employee 7.65% of their gross earnings and costs their EMPLOYER 7.65% of the employee's gross earnings.

    Supplies used by doctors and others in the medical fields have costs of manufacture that inclued 35% federal corporate taxes plus an average of about 4.5% state taxes. The 35% would go away under the Fair Tax, and there is at least some hope that the states would eschew corporate income taxes once the Federal framework goes away.

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    Food would be taxed.
    The Fair Tax includes a prebate calculated at the poverty level, which pays for the tax on the necessities of life that those at the poverty level incur, including food. It isn't necessarily big enough to cover someone eating truffles and steak for a $400 plate at some swank restaurant, tho.


    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    Even the Federal government would pay the tax to ITSELF on goods and services.
    Necessary, or the gov't could set up its own manufacturing and compete with private industry unfairly.


    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    Then there's the matter of fairness. At Fairtax.org, you'll find a Calculator that purports to tell you how much you'll save in taxes under the FairTax. I can almost Guarantee that after you plug in your financial information, you will be Promised significant tax savings.

    My wife and I certainly would pay a Lot less. Based on their recently released tax returns, so would George and Laura Bush. Under the FairTax, their tax bill would fall by $54,000 on an income of more than $900,000.

    That's interesting, because FairTax advocates claim the tax would raise just as much money as the current system. So if a couple with a million-dollar income pays a Lot less, who pays more?

    After repeated experiments with the calculator, I FINALLY found that household. A couple with two children, a Rented home and income of $40,000 would pay $860 more.
    Not possible.

    First, the poverty rate for a family of 4 is about $26,000. They pay no Fair Tax at all on that amount.

    They would pay Fair Tax on the remaining $14,000 of their SPENDING, and at 23%, that would be $3,220. However, the family of 4 would pay social secuity and medicare tax on the whole $40,000 of their income, which would be $3,060. The max savings, if the family of 4 had NO income tax liability at all, would still be only $160, not $860. It's highly unlikely that they would owe no tax at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    In other words, to balance out the $54,000 tax cut for someone making a Million dollars a year, we would have to Raise taxes on 62 couples trying to raise their family on $40,000 a year.-
    And they call it a FairTax?
    Disregarding the bad math, the Fair Tax taps many more sources than the income tax can hope to. The Fair Tax will tax rich people who are simply sitting on a pile of money, spending a little each year, but never earning a taxable dime.

    The above would also include those people that are doing the same thing, except living off the interest of untaxable income, such as municipal bonds.

    Also untouched by the income tax is the imports that are killing our own industry. They are untaxed, and compete unfairly with locally-produced goods that are heavily taxed by the corporate income tax. Foreign, work-for-peanuts workforces keep our jobs going overseas, while our own income taxes, if lowered to zero, could keep those jobs here, and indeed even get them back from overseas.

    Additionally, the income tax also does not tax the proceeds of the illegal drug trade, prostitution, other smuggling, numbers rackets, etc. The Fair Tax would tax these things when the criminals involved use their "earnings" to buy big-screen TVs, fancy cars, etc. No income tax can ever touch that.

    Finally, the Fair Tax opens up a whole new avenue of taxation, that of foreign tourists. We have about 45 million to 56 million foreign toursts a year. If they each spend $5K while here, that's a lot of money at 23% taxation rate.

    Overall, the Fair Tax would radically boost the economy, causing massive investment in the USA with its new 0% manufacturing tax rate. Right now, companies are moving to places like Mexico because of the labor rates, but the savings from taxes going away exceeds the savings in labor in Mexico or anywhere else. A manufacturing tax rate of 0% would be like building things in the USA without having to pay a workforce at all. For instance, it takes from 30 to 33 hours of labor to build a car in this country, depending on whether it is Ford, GM, or Chrysler doing the building. If the workers are getting the $78 / hr that the companies all claimed they were last year when they were whining about labor costs, just before 2 of 'em went bankrupt, that would only be from $2340 to $2574. But, according to who you talk to, the price of goods and services would fall anywhere from 10% to 22%. For a Jeep Liberty SUV, built in Toledo, Ohio, and selling for $25,000, that would be a price reduction of at least $2,500, and possibly $5,500. Easily, the Fair Tax would have the same effect as hiring a $0/hr workforce. We can even beat the Chinese with a wage scale like that.

    The Fair Tax, I believe, is the answer to our overall problems that has been slowly gutting our economy over the last 50 years. And, it's the income tax that has been doing it.

    I not only believe that the Fair Tax is the overall answer to our long-standing economic problems, but further believe that if we _don't_ pass the fair tax and get rid of the income tax, we're headed for an eventual economic train wreck, like Zimbabwe, where there will only be the very very rich and the very very poor, and nobody in between.

  10. #210
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by USViking View Post
    I've been trying to spread this message for years,
    decades even. Why stop now?

    I voted for "Other"

    I would like to see a radically revised income tax system...
    Why tax income? Income taxes are taxes on prosperity. As Ronald Reagan said, "If you want less of something, tax it."

    That's how our country has been going - less and less prosperity. As foreigners have become more and more able to compete, they are overwhelming the USA, and siphoning off all the good jobs that made the middle class prosperous. It is getting so you need a masters degree to be prosperous now. And, I think it'll get worse.

    Study the Fair Tax, a tax on consumption. It has many advantages, and would, I believe, bring jobs back from overseas.

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