View Poll Results: Which do you prefer:

Voters
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  • Income tax - no changes in the status quo

    39 19.80%
  • Flat tax - Everyone pays the same %

    67 34.01%
  • National sales tax - don't spend, you don't pay taxes

    47 23.86%
  • No tax - Unconstitutional - rely on private donations

    10 5.08%
  • Other - explain

    21 10.66%
  • Cookies!

    13 6.60%
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Thread: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

  1. #141
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    And which politicians are making claims today that their plans are to do away with SS and Medicare?



    Exactly, that is why no one except the fringe far right is calling for their removal.
    I don't think you've understood a thing I've said or you are intentionally misrepresenting it. So, I'll wish you a good weekend until you are willing to consider my side of the argument as I present it.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  2. #142
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I don't think you've understood a thing I've said or you are intentionally misrepresenting it.
    Perhaps I did misunderstand what you were trying to say. If so, I am sorry. I understood you to mean that the General Welfare clause in the constitution should not include SS, Medicare, and government regulation of health insurance.

    My response was that since the courts have never been successfully challenged on these matters of constitutional law, they are in accordance with the rule of law and the constitution.

    What is it you are trying to say that was different than my understanding?
    Last edited by Catawba; 01-08-10 at 07:39 PM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #143
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post

    The figures I quoted include capital gains earnings and taxes.
    That's NOT what it looks like to me, nor have you even now claimed other things such as the gutting the Estate tax.

    in 2000, the richest 1% paid 37.42% of all federal income taxes
    NOR, even if true, Does it mitigate the Burden Shift I pointed out by the HALVING of the Capital Gains/Div taxs...

    NOR mitigate those tax Cuts for the Rich under Bush were Financed by Borrowing/Deficits.... Causing a Large Hidden Tax/Inflation on All.. especially those who spend 80% or more of their income to live. (the bottom 50% and more).

    Top Marginal rates are near All time LOWS in historical terms.

    Throughout the 50s to early 80's it was 70-90%.... you remember! When we were a "communist country" and we actually had a larger percent Middle Class Because of that higher Progressivity. (and less greed)

    This whole Idiocy with a 'Pay Czar' is ridiculous and unneeded. If you just boost the top marginal rate it doesn't matter if someone makes a $30 mil bonus.. he'll pay $20 mil to the govt, so they can bail his greedy Bank/Brokerage firm out next time they push it too hard/next bust cycle.

    -
    Last edited by mbig; 01-08-10 at 07:46 PM.
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    anon

  4. #144
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    For the many who voted for a National Sales Tax.. any idea on Rate?

    The Govt needs the same amount to run under any system. (unless you want to change issues) If the rich pay less/Much less, YOU pay more.
    Got it?

    'Fairtax' as scored independently (not their own Bogus 23/30%) comes in around the mid 50s% range.
    Add that to State sales taxes, and state income taxes converted (for uniformity/simplicity) to sales taxes and you it the mid 60s% on purchases.
    In NYC we already have a 9.375 sales tax and a 3+% Income tax to add to a federal rate.

    With the inevitable shifting of the economy underground to avoid that tax, it goes closer to 100%.

    Still for it? how can you be 'for' a tax until /unless you know at least an approximate rate?
    I know, You think "15% is fair" and that's it. Great. Except it's NOT EVEN CLOSE to that.

    We know who's taxes will go down.
    Buffett's will drop a Billion alone as his spending is Neglible compared to his income.
    Goldman Sachs/Disney/GE CEOs.. all WAY down as these people spend very little of their income to live.
    Their Taxes will go from 38% to 3.8% and someone is going to pay for that.

    Who do y'all thinlk that will be?
    Do y'all think you are frugal and will buy less [enough] to lower yo taxes and make "Them" pay?


    Rongu.
    -

    Same with 'Flat Tax'
    The system loses progressivity and you just can't take 25-30% from those who make 15k a year... while lowering the tax on people who are now in the top bracket/38%.
    (and also eliminating taxes of Dividends/Cap gains falling NOW mainly on the rich)

    We already have to send out unanimously approved, stimulous checks (Proof of the Pudding) because they have Nothing left (and can't buy goods/computers/cars, etc to support the stock prices of the rich).... because the system, Obviously, isn't progressive Enough now!
    you want to tax them more/make it regressive/flatter?
    Ridiculous.
    Last edited by mbig; 01-08-10 at 08:15 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

  5. #145
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    For the many who voted for a National Sales Tax.. any idea on Rate?

    The Govt needs the same amount to run under any system.

    'Fairtax' as scored independently (not their own Bogus 23/30%) comes in around the mid 50s% range.
    Add that to State sales taxes, and state income taxe converted (for uniformity) to sale taxes and you it the mid 60s% on purchases.

    With the inevitable shifting of the economy underground to avoid that tax, it goes closer to 100%.
    Got a link to this study?

    I do want a tax that is less progressive, you betchya. Investment creates jobs.

  6. #146
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    For the many who voted for a National Sales Tax.. any idea on Rate?

    The Govt needs the same amount to run under any system. (unless you want to change issues) If the rich pay less/Much less, YOU pay more.
    Got it?

    'Fairtax' as scored independently (not their own Bogus 23/30%) comes in around the mid 50s% range.
    Add that to State sales taxes, and state income taxes converted (for uniformity/simplicity) to sales taxes and you it the mid 60s% on purchases.
    In NYC we already have a 9.375 sales tax and a 3+% Income tax to add to a federal rate.

    With the inevitable shifting of the economy underground to avoid that tax, it goes closer to 100%.

    Still for it? how can you be 'for' a tax until /unless you know at least an approximate rate?
    I know, You think "15% is fair" and that's it. Great. Except it's NOT EVEN CLOSE to that.

    We know who's taxes will go down.
    Buffett's will drop a Billion alone as his spending is Neglible compared to his income.
    Goldman Sachs/Disney/GE CEOs.. all WAY down as these people spend very little of their income to live.
    Their Taxes will go from 38% to 3.8% and someone is going to pay for that.

    Who do y'all thinlk that will be?
    Do y'all think you are frugal and will buy less [enough] to lower yo taxes and make "Them" pay?


    Rongu.
    -

    Same with 'Flat Tax'
    The system loses progressivity and you just can't take 25-30% from those who make 15k a year... while lowering the tax on people who are now in the top bracket/38%.
    (and also eliminating taxes of Dividends/Cap gains falling NOW mainly on the rich)

    We already have to send out unanimously approved, stimulous checks (Proof of the Pudding) because they have Nothing left (and can't buy goods/computers/cars, etc to support the stock prices of the rich).... because the system, Obviously, isn't progressive Enough now!
    you want to tax them more/make it regressive/flatter?
    Ridiculous.
    You got a link where this came from?

  7. #147
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    You got a link where this came from?
    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Got a link to this study?

    I do want a tax that is less progressive, you betchya. Investment creates jobs.
    Several.

    Here's one with TWO different estimates.. have another here somewhere- have to search old discssion on this and other boards.
    Ben rehashed by me 100 times.


    Fair Tax, Flawed Tax
    Does adding 30% to the price of every house sold sound like a good idea to you?

    by BRUCE BARTLETT
    August 26, 2007
    Wall Street Journal

    [..............]

    Rejecting all the Tricks of FairTax supporters and calculating the tax rate honestly--by including the higher spending that it mandates and by being realistic about what could actually be taxed--professional revenue estimators have always concluded that a national retail sales tax would have to be much, much higher than 23%.

    A 2000 estimate by Congress's Joint Committee on Taxation found the tax-inclusive rate would have to be 36% and the tax-exclusive rate would be 57%.


    In 2005, the U.S. Treasury Department calculated that a tax-exclusive rate of 34% would be needed just to replace the income tax, leaving the payroll tax in place.
    But if evasion were high then the rate might have to rise to 49%.

    If the FairTax were only able to cover the limited sales tax base of a typical state, then a rate of 64% would be required (89% with high evasion).

    I've emphasized problems with the FairTax rate because public opinion polls have long shown that support for flat-rate tax reforms is extremely sensitive to the proposed rate, with support dropping off sharply at a rate higher than 23%.

    [..............]

    Mr. Bartlett was deputy assistant secretary of the Treasury for economic policy from 1988 to 1993.

    Again, those of you voting for National Sales tax are DREAMING of a number I gaurantee is WAY too low.
    -
    -
    Last edited by mbig; 01-08-10 at 08:32 PM.
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    anon

  8. #148
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    Several.

    Here's one with TWO different estimates.. have another here somewhere- have to search old discssion on this and other boards.
    Ben rehashed by me 100 times.



    Again, those of you voting for National Sales tax are DREAMING of a number I gaurantee is WAY too low.
    -
    -
    Where is the link?

  9. #149
    onomatopoeic
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219

    You got a link where this came from?
    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib

    Got a link to this study?

    .....
    Answer 2:
    this analysis 1998, but the economics are pretty much/remarkably the same in the recent analyses

    This 56% my last link 57%
    REAL Numbers tend to do that.

    The 23 Percent Solution

    NEW YORK TIMES OP-ED

    JAN 23, 1998
    By Robert S. McIntyre
    Washington
    Suppose a bunch of Rich people want to promote a national sales tax to replace the Federal income tax. How do they try to persuade the public to support such a plan? Simple: Play with the arithmetic.

    Earlier this month, the well-financed group Americans for Fair Taxation, based in Texas, kicked off a sales-tax campaign with a full-page advertisement in several large newspapers. It called for replacing all the main Federal taxes--personal and corporate income taxes, payroll taxes and the estate tax--with a 23% national retail sales tax.
    [....]
    I was curious about how the group did its arithmetic, so I checked out its Web site--www.fairtax.org--and sent a note to the E-mail address to get further information about the group's calculations.

    According to the group's figures, at 1995 levels a new sales tax would have to raise $1.36 trillion to replace all Federal income taxes, payroll taxes and estate and gift taxes.
    Under its plan, the group says, taxable spending would be $4.6 trillion (after accounting for rebates to partly protect lower-income families). So, $1.36 trillion divided by $4.6 trillion would be the required sales tax rate. Fine, except that $1.36 trillion divided by $4.6 trillion is not 23%. It's about 30%.

    It turns out that the group's purported 23% tax rate is misleading and hypothetical. It came up with that number by dividing the sales tax by the cost of a purchase plus the tax. So if the tax on a $100 purchase is $30, the group prefers to call it a 23% "tax inclusive rate" ($30 divided by $130). Ever hear of computing a sales tax like that?

    The fact that the group's sales tax, even by its own figures, entails a 30% tax rate is only the beginning of the math problems.
    The group's backup materials also assert that almost a third of its projected sales-tax revenue is supposed to come from taxes the Government will pay to itself.
    Build a road, pay Yourself a tax.

    Buy some planes for the Air Force, pay Yourself some more. And so on.

    Unfortunately, that shell game won't work. Without these Phantom governmental tax payments, the sales tax rate would have to jump to 42% to break even.

    A bit more digging reveals that a quarter of the remaining sales taxes are supposed to be paid on things like church services, Free care at Veterans hospitals and a variety of hard-to-tax financial services like Free checking accounts.
    If we discount the taxes on these items, the sales tax rate would have to climb to an astronomical 56% to break even.


    Apparently, the millions of dollars that Americans for Fair Taxation says it has spent on focus groups and polling have taught it an important lesson: giving people the real facts about a national sales tax is politically disastrous for its proponents. So the group is trying the only other available route: cooking the numbers.
    That's the NY Times, Wall Street Journal, Deputy Asst Secretary of the Treasury, Joint Congressional tax committe, US Treasury dept, etc.
    Last edited by mbig; 01-08-10 at 08:58 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

  10. #150
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    Re: Income tax; Flat tax; National Sales tax; No tax

    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post

    Where is the link?
    Here ya go!

    Extra - WSJ.com


    Sorry.
    Was rushing to get it out/copied old post of mine from another board and neglected link.
    Facts still the same and devastating for the Fairytax.
    Pointing out many additional problems of 'Fairytax'.

    Maybe those who votd for Natl sales tax will now reconsider!
    Ya.
    -
    Last edited by mbig; 01-08-10 at 09:02 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

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