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Thread: Simple question: race as part of a profile

  1. #11
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    Re: Simple question: race as part of a profile

    First - is it not possible that the 80 year old white woman could be living in a Middle Eastern country? An assumption is made that if someone is Middle Eastern they must racially look a certain specific way and that's not always the case. Therefore racial norms are not specifically an indicator but a geographical one (ie., Middle East) could be, a religious one could be, and specific factors which are not constant such as how the person acts, what they are carrying, how they behave, and did the person pass all of the security check points. IF they did --- it may be enough based on geographic location, country of origin or religion to have them go through a second check, which would verify they are not on a terrorist or no-fly database. This could take hours to days to verify depending... I have no issue with that.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Simple question: race as part of a profile

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    For example in that....

    I would think of things like a one way ticket, a place on a watch list, and even nervous behavior as all more telling and more important factors when determining how much scrutiny to give someone.

    Behavior is the most telling, I think I've recalled reading. I'm really having a hard time with Arcana's assertion that one-way, paid in cash, no luggage, travelling alone is not a flag. Everything I've heard says those things are flags.
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  3. #13
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    Re: Simple question: race as part of a profile

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Orius, I must ask if you actually read my post or if you simply saw "profiling" in the name and immedietely jumped to a conclussion. I ask this because of things you've said such as:

    "We should use profiling as a last resort when all other methods are not delivering accurate information."

    Where in my example did I suggest this wouldn't be the case. In my example I was not advocating this as a first, or second, or third line of defense. This was stated as a MINOR factor in a wide range of more important factors that should be taken into account first, with terror databases SPECIFICALLY mentioned as something that would be considered first.

    You wish to condemn and rant about people not paying attention, while it appears you yourself refuse to actually read what people have written and have a legitimate and worth while conversation instead choosing to simply see a word and immedietely leap to conclussions and base your argument not statements of the people you're talking to but your own prejudices and stereotypes.

    No where did I say this would be a first line of defense, rather I repeatedly pointed it out as minor and put it as a sort of "last resort" or "thing to break a tie" type of scenario. No where did I say the other methods should be ignored. No where did I say this would solve all problems or make the system completely and utterly perfect. You're arguing against a straw man, kindly take said strawman and find somewhere else to play with it or deal with the things actually written please.
    I read your post.

    I just want to clarify that I wasn't targeting you specifically when I made those points, I was speaking in general, as there have been a lot of threads about racial profiling recently.

    What you are proposing is a moderate approach where racial profiling is not the main avenue of security but it's part of the repertoire at their disposal; but no matter what way you slice that approach, racial profiling still becomes the enforced norm where people are trained in that behavior. I don't think this is useful. Aside from that fact, it's already happening to some degree. My friends of colour have a much more auspicious time at places like Newark airport than I have. (I know that's anecdotal, but I think it reflects a broader scope.)

    More importantly, if we can't even get the obvious security straight wherein a clear red flag is moving freely through the system without a passport, how well do you think racial profiling is going to work? It's just going to prolong the wait times even more, victimize a lot more innocent people, all the while wasting personnel resources that already can't seem to hone in on the most blaringly obvious terrorists.

    What would be more productive would be to research how the Nigerian man was ignored at so many checkpoints while being the most obvious terrorist to move through the system so far.

  4. #14
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    Re: Simple question: race as part of a profile

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I read your post.

    I just want to clarify that I wasn't targeting you specifically when I made those points, I was speaking in general, as there have been a lot of threads about racial profiling recently.
    NP. That's likely why I reacted a bit harshly to your post. I made this thread specifically to get AWAY from those other threads about racial profiling and have a different discussion on it.

    More importantly, if we can't even get the obvious security straight wherein a clear red flag is moving freely through the system without a passport, how well do you think racial profiling is going to work? It's just going to prolong the wait times even more, victimize a lot more innocent people, all the while wasting personnel resources that already can't seem to hone in on the most blaringly obvious terrorists.
    I do think we need to improve what we currently are doing. I've stated this in numerous threads actually. And I don't even think this should necessarily be part of training. However, what I'm saying is even if its subconsious or mildly consious, I have no real ISSUE with this kind of profiling and would have no issue with it being emplimented, even if it was as simple as the BDO's who are already being trained to watch behavior to be the ones that are taking this a bit into account. I don't see why the failure of other facets of things means we should be restricting ourselves of other useful techniques till we get them right.

    What would be more productive would be to research how the Nigerian man was ignored at so many checkpoints while being the most obvious terrorist to move through the system so far.
    I agree 100% with this. I just don't agree with you that these two things would have to be 100% exclusive to each other.

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    Re: Simple question: race as part of a profile

    The black kid & the middle east guy should be strip searched.....

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    Re: Simple question: race as part of a profile

    Quote Originally Posted by Partisan View Post
    The black kid & the middle east guy should be strip searched.....
    Why? ...........
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    Re: Simple question: race as part of a profile

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    Why? ...........
    They are probably muslims.....
    Err on the side of caution.....

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    Re: Simple question: race as part of a profile

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    It'd basically be:

    "Yes, I agree with the notion that race or religion as a minor portion of a much broader profile that at best would have a slight affect on the level of scrunity giving to an individual"

    And are you seriously in stating that race should not be part of a profile in ANY situation? Please answer, I'd be interested to hear you assure me of that being your stance and then I'd have some more questions.
    Well, if it is a small part, the only part it would play would be ruling people out based on their race for extra searches, something we should not do. If someone is acting suspicious, give them extra searches, even if they are an 80yr old white grandmother.

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    Re: Simple question: race as part of a profile

    Quote Originally Posted by Partisan View Post
    They are probably muslims.....
    Err on the side of caution.....

    So, strip search everyone you think is Muslim? What about white Muslims?
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    Re: Simple question: race as part of a profile

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    So, strip search everyone you think is Muslim? What about white Muslims?
    Them too.....

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