View Poll Results: God Does Not Exist: Logical? Scientific?

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  • Logical but not scientific.

    5 10.42%
  • Scientific but not logical.

    0 0%
  • Logical and scientific.

    11 22.92%
  • Neither logical or scientific.

    32 66.67%
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Thread: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

  1. #81
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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Why does there have to be?
    If God is a hypothesis about the structure of the universe, then it essentially says "A universe logically must have Characteristic X if there is a god, and would not have Characteristic X without a god" (or vice versa). Therefore there should be a way to either test whether Characteristic X exists in our universe and/or disprove the claim that God is necessary/impossible in a universe with Characteristic X.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    Depends on which version of God you believe in. But in most cases the difference would be more spiritual than physical, and thus can't really be tested.
    Then it's not really any more logical than the garage dragon. I could claim that the garage dragon answers my prayers and is the source of morality and will send me to heaven when I die, or some other religious/spiritual claim.
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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If God is a hypothesis about the structure of the universe, then it essentially says "A universe logically must have Characteristic X if there is a god, and would not have Characteristic X without a god" (or vice versa). Therefore there should be a way to either test whether Characteristic X exists in our universe and/or disprove the claim that God is necessary/impossible in a universe with Characteristic X.
    Characteristic X is order. Does the universe have order?

    Does order come from chaos, or does it come from intelligence?

    What is god, if not an intelligent being?
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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Characteristic X is order. Does the universe have order?

    Does order come from chaos, or does it come from intelligence?

    What is god, if not an intelligent being?
    So you're saying that order can only exist in a universe which was created by an intelligent being? On what basis do you make this assumption?
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  4. #84
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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Characteristic X is order. Does the universe have order?

    Does order come from chaos, or does it come from intelligence?

    What is god, if not an intelligent being?
    Depends on how you define order. Does it have apparent order, meaning do we see things as orderly? Sure, but that's more to do with how our brains are wired than with actual order. If you're looking at thermodynamic order, then certainly the universe is getting less ordered as time goes on because of heat loss.
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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Depends on how you define order. Does it have apparent order, meaning do we see things as orderly? Sure, but that's more to do with how our brains are wired than with actual order. If you're looking at thermodynamic order, then certainly the universe is getting less ordered as time goes on because of heat loss.
    Heat loss?
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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Depends on how you define order. Does it have apparent order, meaning do we see things as orderly? Sure, but that's more to do with how our brains are wired than with actual order. If you're looking at thermodynamic order, then certainly the universe is getting less ordered as time goes on because of heat loss.
    The universe is a place of order. Once natural laws are understood, then events are predictable. When we don't see the order, it is because we don't yet understand the natural laws that exist.

    Look at our own Earth, the place man best understands. What an complex and well ordered web of life we have here, one that we're only just beginning to understand totally.

    Consider the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number"]Fibonacci sequence[/ame] and the ratio that it produces. That order is seen in everything from the arms of a spiral galaxy to the shell of the nautilus to the proportions of the human body. How could such a thing be if there were chaos rather than order?

    Heat loss? Matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed.
    Last edited by Dittohead not!; 01-02-10 at 12:04 PM.
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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Heat loss?
    '
    The 2nd law of thermodynamics. In this universe we go from low to higher entropy, going from hot to cold, as in losing energy. Even though there are events that "store" energy, such as photosynthesis and eating, etc. the overall output of energy is always more than that which is stored. For example, the sun spent more energy that photosynthesis can ever store.

    This, although at first seems chaotic, is actually very orderly.


    EDIT: Well, the process goes in an orderly fashion, but what I think cephus meant was that in the beginning where energy was more concentrated, it had more "order". By the time all heat is loss, it would appear to have loss it's "order."
    Last edited by Lightdemon; 01-02-10 at 05:05 PM.
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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Heat loss?
    http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=291231024

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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    Is this a logical or scientific statement?

    God does not exist.
    Neither.

    If God exists and is omnipotent, then He transcends logic (by at least one version of 'omnipotence'), making any statement about God an illogical one (including this one. How recursive!)

    Scientifically disproving the existence of anything is impossible, as inductive reasoning/the scientific method is never absolute. All science can tell us is that God isn't conclusively anywhere that science has so far looked, by the methods that science has so far employed. To paraphrase Dogbert - it's like using a metal detector to find if there are unicorns in your sock drawer. Absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence.
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    Re: God Does Not Exist: Logical Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Heat loss?
    The most perfectly ordered thermodynamic system was at the point of the Big Bang. Since then, we've been thermodynamically degrading as available energy is being lost through heat.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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